A very sturdy and heavy feeling animal.

The open ended architecture is a great idea, with an endless amount of change and additions able to be added.

Now I'm just going on a short amount of time with the unit, so my thoughts and opinions will differ as time progresses.

This board is not a sit-down and a few presses and your off. As a sound playback device, this is a very deep instrument, with it's GM/GS soundset very refreshing, and the giga sampler library very robust.

I have the live-style player playing but I'm not sure I've loaded the correct sounds, so I will have to wait for that statement.

This keyboard is definitly designed and built for the studio and or person who doesn't mind building their own personal set-up. This keyboard is for the person looking for something they can constantly grow with.

More to come ...

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

Great news Frank.....keep us posted.....Fran also is enjoying his new MS......more to come for sure!!

OK, now everybody...

Hands up who NEEDS an arranger that "is definitely designed and built for the studio and or person who doesn't mind building their own personal set-up". In other words, making their own styles and completely revoicing them.

Let's have a poll...

How many people on this forum already make their own styles from scratch, and design and voice the sounds to play them? And I don't mean just one or two, but MOST of their styles...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Crickets chirping

Now you are a dealer, Frank, how about YOU getting a hold of Dom, and letting him know this would be a much easier sell if it WERE "a sit-down and a few presses and your off" kind of keyboard AS WELL...

This is by far not your typical press and go board.

The more I play it the more I see the potential, yes you are correct Diki, the person that is used to a "PSR" instant ready-to-go type set-up, should not even consider this board.

But the ones that are ready for a keyboard that will give you back as much as you put in. I personally could not get this board ready for play without allot of time, but everything that I'm finding out with it makes me wonder how much more can it do.

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

I think you kind of trivialized other arrangers with the 'PSR' comment, Frank. A T3, a PA2Xpro, an E80 is ALSO 'a sit-down and a few presses and your off" arranger.

But with some incredible styles, sounds and OS capabilities, too. It's NOT just the PSR's that are designed for instant gratification. Just about everything EXCEPT the MS is designed so that, when you first get it, at least you can enjoy it, maybe even gig with it the day you get it.

I just have always failed to understand why Dom never understands this basic requirement for an arranger...

I used the term PSR as to the type of arranger,

I have owned, sold and gigged with almost all arrangers that have been out.

I found the PA2xpro to have taken the most time to set-up but have enjoyed the payback everytime I've used it.

I thought the SD1+ had the least amount of set-up time, and I equally enjoyed it, maybe even more.

I have used T1, T2, and T3s, they sounded great and get better with each model, but I could never get the sound I personally was looking for out of them.

The Mediastation has allot of potential, but like you said Diki, the arranger part needs allot of work, but since it is a software type set-up it can eventually be it, I'm sure Domenic is working at it as we speak, once that happens the MS will be a great board.

I'm gigging this weekend, and unless a Audya comes in the door tomorrow or Friday, I'll be using either a PA2xpro or T3.

Maybe we can help Domenic with suggestions on how to get the MS up to snuff, everyone is more than welcome to come down and try or buy it.



------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com
203.876.1133

"A very heavy and sturdy feeling animal"
As soon as I read this first line I thought "Frank doesn't really like it." As I read on, I really thought Frank doesn't like this.

------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566 www.kayesmusicscene.com

[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 03-10-2009).]

[This message has been edited by George Kaye (edited 03-10-2009).]

As to the poll...Count me as a YES.

I already have extensive experienc ewith software arranger and I like the idea a lot.

Frank..I am real interesting in knowing the quality of the sounds you have out of the box.

If you have any questions abot the LS itself, let me know. What I want to know is how well integrated Dom has the LS into the MS?

Lee S.

George are you giong to carry the Media station in your store also?

George, your right and your wrong.

Unfortunately I am still very much a ok arranger player, with ( like everyone else ) a bad case of instant gratification.

I am not saying anything negative because to give an educated opinion one needs to be educated. And as it stands now, I know absolutely nothing helpful about the Mediastation.

I am though quite intelligent, and I will be able to learn,

As for this keyboard being sellable, I'm sure it is to a few, not to the masses.

Just like the Korg Oayses, that was not everyone's cup of tea, and they sold a couple.

Leeboy, let me know when you want to come down.

One new notes from today..
Norber just send us a new Live styler version with multiple ASIO Host features and now any VST can be embedded i Live styler too: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/livestylermodule-p-223.html

On the Frank and Fan MS, they have first to running the ASIO Host Patch1, for run UP the Yamaha YXG50 VST and then the Live styler can play ovee it.

Now this last issue is resolved too, it mean that when you press the STYLE key, the Live styler run up, load the VST and ready to play the all yamaha styles.
More easy I think I can not make.

The second news is that we have REMOVED the Live tyles from the MS OS CD installer system and made it working like module, have only to extract the Live styler RAR file on Presets folder and the MS will load it.

Anyway..after LOST some nice MS orders from famous italian musician, we think that we will follow the Roland way,
Investing more for develope only professional Workstation keyboards and NOT TOP arranger.
First reason because the arranger market is less than the 3% worldwide and also because professional big musician will NEVER take one arranger keyboard on live stage group.
You can see yourself, all the big musician and groups use ONLY workstation keyboard for play SOUNDS and SOUNDS and not styles..

In to MS will still remain the Qranger system, because is full audio-midi-GIGA SEQ system and can be used as normally sequencer, integrated on MS system.
Who want, can continue use it for play styles, but for the all others can be used for a professional audio-midi sequencer, like the Roland Fantom-G or some like this.

Who want also can buy the MS Live styler module for pplay the yamaha styles with the VST plug-in, so..the system continue remain open.
When Norbert from Live styler release a new version, we have just to replace the livestyler.exe file and the MS will have new features, without that you there continue request me new features.

Another example:
after we have posted on homepage the Pianoteq3 VST and tested also that is working the new Pianissimo VST, get another order for a MS X-88 PRO, ONLY for play professional VST and GIGA pianos sounds on stage, instead that they have to buy the new Roland V-Piano, that cost a lot of money ONLY for play Piano sounds.

Our work here is try to optimize more as possible and in better the MS system, for manage more simple as possible the all desidered sounds and engines.

Frank, Fran and the all others can confirm, just press one MS key ( like the ORGAN for te B4) or the all Asio Host patch and the sounds ASIO/VST/GIGA is UP, ready to play.

I will be honest too: if you there are looking for a perfect styles balance, then this is possible only with the embedded system. I prefer invest more for the Professional Workstation keyboards for stage.

Enjoy what you play.

When the community starts developing new styles and setups... and sharing them... this instrument might be transfered intoo an easy to operate machine by the community.

The community will develope this system even further and share their stuff... as its an open system meant to share..

So in a year you buy this MS, download your settings and styles and off you are...

All people need to do is develop an easy way to share stuff and integrate it in your set-up...

I would say user ignorance is a big factor with an advanced unit like this also, no offense to asnyone myself included. Many just dont know enough about VST's & all these programs in the first place let alone trying to be a good player besides....it could be just too overwhelming....not everyone is proficient enough or cares to be versus just powering ion and enjoying playing an arranger out of the box so to speak.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-10-2009).]

Dom oh Dom...

The mediastation has allways been a workstation... the most powerfull on the market..

And the arranger stuff is just an extra add on, very important to the people on this forum, not important to a lot of pro musicians.

So sell the arranger stuff as an addon...


But to gain access in the professionall music, you'll need to add real time tools like Karma...that allow ultimate creativity to those professionall musicians...

If you allow integration of these different systems, like people playing MP3,s/sequences/styles and toying with their Uber real time tools on top of that then you have taken the next step

The reason it's not important to most pros who buy the MS as a WS is that it is so poorly realized, they don't have a clue about how useful it COULD be...

Let's put it this way... if it DID sound ONLY as good as a T3 when you switched it on, and then you could add all the other stuff as well, those pros would be lining up around the block for one (with me at the head of the cue!).

If the styles and soundset weren't so half-realized OOTB, those pros would SOON realize what a powerful tool a hybrid arranger/WS can be. Tragically, Dom has made a piece of hardware that COULD do this, but forgot to actually make the styles and soundset that would impress as much as the poor lowly, much maligned 'closed' arranger, who's manufacturer at least GETS the concept of an 'arranger'.

Now it looks like Dom is simply going to give up, and turn the MS into another 'me too' Neko and Muse Receptor, when SO little more work could turn it into not just a Muse beater, but a T3 beater as well...

I guess it's simpler to write code than to get styles and soundsets made. Think about THAT the next time anyone tries to 'bash' the 'closed' arranger

As to the Poll, yes creating and editingn styles is why I get an arranger. Having my own sound on stage is very important to me. I do not want to sound like a factory.

Then it is simply amazing that those here that DO make their own styles seldom ever showcase them...

And do you make styles from scratch, or do you take the already great style parts and mostly combine them, and simply add a little bit of yourself to it? It's one thing if you already have a good library of pieces parts to combine, but creating ROM quality styles from scratch seems an awfully hard thing to do (given the lack of them on the MS)

Dom i think you are making the rigt decision. The arranger aspect was never going to be a strong point of the MS and in many ways may have held the progress of the MS in terms of your time and money and the bad press it was getting. I really wish you well with the MS and i hop it is able to break into the big leagues as a workstaion which is what it always has been.

Hand goes up.....Haven't touched the T3 since getting the Motif XS8. (except for quick tracks for the wife's gig)

I like having the flexibility to create something that was not already done somewhere at some time. But enjoy being able to sit down and cut a quick accompainment track on the T3 as well for something that HAS been already done and as a songwriting sketch pad.

I would be a good candidate for an open architecture WS like that IF there was local support and a track record (and I could get it at below cost..LOL) IN fact I bought something similar in the XS8 In fact the 6000 plus Arps, Sampling implementation on the Motif and Linux OS are "sort of" becoming open architecture like. I HAVE to create my own "styles" Using ARP'd sections to get away from the sameness of arranger styles. Yeah real players have played the Arps. But in the end I get to assemble the band and play the parts in that are not there.

Nothing does this better then a DAW integrated WS. The MediaStation seems to be BOTH the DAW and the WS if I understand it correctly. The XS is very close to that albeit not as open except within Cubase where it can be a fully editable VSTi and can send 16 independent channels of Audio to a DAW using any DAW Software.

The MS is a Nice concept..I see nothing wrong with that except for a serious arranger player who wants and needs "instant gratification" and will accept nothing less.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-10-2009).]

Uh no he didn't.....Playing on a real Work Station does trivialize an Arranger.

"because professional big musician will NEVER take one arranger keyboard on live stage group." He is right about this.

Like it or not, many "pros" (and semi pros) still consider Arrangers no more than "toys" I know of no one who uses on in a band of any measured success.You don't simply don't see them routinely being used by well know keyboard "professionals" except perhaps by a handful of "professional" wedding singers perhaps.

There isn't a keyboard made that one cannot turn on and play. OK maybe not as easy as an Arranger but really, it doesn't take a technological Phd to operate any keyboard out of the box for most pro players who have ever played a keyboard that runs on AC or batteries.

But I can understand why you would think the technology is all that tough playing on a four year old G70.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-10-2009).]

Dom,
Please do not give up on the arranger part...you have great potential with it.

Use LS to it's full advantage and get some folks doing native styles too.

It will pay off for you...but we must have content...that's what sells along with the open achitecture.

How is the Giga XG sound set comming along...???

Does Frank V. (audiowerks) have it yet??

I am using a Yamaha QY100 rigt now for style tracks on LS, it's not T3...but pretty good! Giga XG has super potential to be better yet.

Lee S.

. Deleted by the OP

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 03-11-2009).]

Kingfrog.... imagine that your MoXS came with NO arps in it, or at least the ones that did basically sucked compared to your T3. And imagine that it's soundset was VERY hit and miss, and it was up to you to go out, and buy a bunch of VSTi's that took considerable skill and luck to 'play nice' with each other.

I doubt you would get it even if you COULD get it at cost...

What do you think 'arps' are? They are style Parts, plain and simple. Slightly different in concept, but essentially the same. Without them, your MoXS is a MUCH poorer keyboard. As the MS is without great styles.

If you are incorporating those arps in your music, you are no more making original music than if you used a style. You have to make your OWN before you can claim that...

Content, content, content... Any modern keyboard without this is poorer for it.

Shhhh.... don't tell this to Dom.

He's been telling us for YEARS how much better this 'arranger' was than ANY poor 'closed' arranger. But now, rather than simply contend with actually knuckling down and providing the styles and sounds that beat the modern TOTL 'closed' arranger (all the darn thing needs to actually bear his bragging out), he's going to concentrate on the users that HAVE embraced the MS... WS users. With little or no need for styles whatsoever.

It's one of those 'for the want of a nail' moments. So near, and yet so far. What a waste.

.Deleted by the OP

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 03-11-2009).]

I'm sorry, but a 'select few' doesn't describe the numbers of arranger players that wanted the MS to be a fully fledged arranger (as well)...

It's the vast majority of the market. Or the MS would sell better than the T3.

That's what I never got... why not appease the OTHER 98% of arranger players AS WELL? All it would take is some great styles and a well balanced soundset. Then instead of appealing to the tiny minority, he would capture everybody in that price range?

Just my opinion,
It can be a perfect arranger. Don't forget that a lot of musicians make their own styles from scratch because in their genre of music, commercial styles don't exist. I think particularly to folkloric musicians, oriental music...
This can be a perfect instrument for these guys.

I would not be so much in a hurry to poo poo the Mediastation. After all you have not actually PLAYED one!! You can harp on me for dismissing $200 powered speakers based on specs, (recommended by someone who seems more concerned with thread post counts) for live use but you are hammering a keyboard with much more promise on paper without having even seen one!! MULTIPLE ASIO HOSTING?? Now there is something I would love to have on the PC DAW.


...What you are describing in your first paragraph is a DAW. Nothing wrong with a DAW. No Arps, No Voice set, yeah needs VSTis and sometimes they don't play nice......... yet its at the heart of every studio and production in the modern world.

Arps are not Styles...Arps are 4 or 8 beat loops that can be used in many DIFFERENT styles. A live Drummer is playing loops or 8 bars or more at a time. A live guitarist is playing loops of a chord progression, Hardly "styles"

A Style is a finished work, made up of multiple Arps meticulously assembled together by someone who is perfectly copying something that was already proven successful (as you once claimed yourself). Thats what Arrangers do. They regurgitate that which has already been successful. They produce the right soundsets with the chosen styles in the right tempos, EFX and combinations to reproduce cover tunes but is a tad handicapping and very restraining when creating something from nothing. The very thing that is the draw of them for an OMB is the bane of them for someone who rather enjoys creating original music. I found that out rather quickly but expected as much which led me to the Korg PA2x because it was the better Arranger "workstation". Turned out it was neither,

The Motif without the ARPS would be just another Work Station. A damn good one though. My Tyros cannot send 16 discrete tracks of Audio to the DAW in one pass with zero latency direct monitoring, (Took me awhile to get it to send 16 tracks of MIDI at once), nor will the T3 allow editable linear or Pattern recording. or control the DAW both ways, I cannot bring up a T3 voice and edit EIGHT different elements of the voice over endless variations keymaps, controllers, velocities, on and on....(but most don't need it)

I DO understand the promise regarding the MediaStation having both a Tyros, a 64 bit open source DAW, and the MoXS. IF it is indeed a combination on any level of those three elements it's a monster idea. And should do well for those inclined to create music rather then recreate it. DO I want one? No I have the bases covered but for someone who didn't I can understand the draw. Is it a tough sell. Yep Professional players on levels above weddings and Bar Mitzvahs don't use Arrangers. That should not be their market.I am not sure where their market is though. People who can appreciate their attempts like me already have a DAW,and usually a Workstation, or KB Controller and a crapload of VSTis.


And Arranger players are usually older guys who are not inclined to want to get involved with a computer on that level and instead want to press a few buttons and go. Left hand chords right hand accompaniment or melody........"Unforgettable...Thats what you are"




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-11-2009).]

If the mediastation were to have T3 styles, of what value would the mediastation be to persons who would want a T3 type keyboard?

If the mediastation had OTB styles sounding like Yamaha then persons would complain about the price and value of the MS. If the styles sounded the same like the T3, they would say “why should I get the MS when the T3 can do the job?”
Based on some persons representation hear (they keep insulting and belittling arranger players), most arranger players on this forum are incapable of using keyboard technology. So the extra and innovative features on the MS would be of no value to them.


If the T3 and MS styles were comparable,, then to the T3 market the MS would not be of any value even with the MS’s integration features because as some persons keep stating here, most persons on this forum can not use advance music technology.


I think Dom is going in the right direction. Whether some persons want to admit it or not, the Karaoke arranger market (turn on the keyboard, press one button and sound like a CD recording) is a very small market.

The MS market is the XS PA2x market who wants integration in a keyboard. It is for professionals who want to be able to create and to have their own unique sound on stage. That is why you have not seen arrangers with more modern styles. People who play modern music, don’t just want to sound like a record. The way a modern musician would use an arranger is different than how the older crowd here uses an arranger. Modern music and playing requires putting your own stamp on a song, tweaking sounds and styles and being creative. The modern musician if playing modern music would use an arranger much differently from the traditional arranger player here. The modern musician embraces technology, wants and has the skill to create music and likes tweaking to get their own distinct sound. As most of us know, creating styles is not that difficult if you are creating the style to complement your playing and not replace it.

You can use existing styles and take parts from an existing style, or you can make a style from scratch (both of which I do).

The reason why arrangers have such a bad name is not because of the technology of styles but how arrangers are used.

The more people keep belittling arranger players, asking for arrangers to be a Karaoke machine (G70, T3 …) and not embracing arranger technology and integration, the greater the demise of arrangers.

All is said really nice.
I can say only that now is this tool from box. But it is having own personalization with big big potential.

As BILL says what ever you play enjoy at that.

BR Magica Alfa

OK...let's see if I have this right...

An OPEN system full function WS..I can be the judge and select virtually any sound sets I want...high quality hardware,,,lot of programming capability's long term...

AND native Q-ranger style player...AND a full funtion Live Styler software arranger that has gotten better year to year that plays T2 styles and ALSO plays Ketron styles and can directly control a Ketron HW sound module (SD-2)!!!!!!!!

I don't see any problem.

Have any of you that are negative about this being an arranger even USED Live-Styler (current version) ??? Dom, the XG sound set is critical...status??

This IS an arranger! Absolutely! It is every bit as much an arranger as Frank R.'s software arranger setup (and others too).

My only question is how well done is the LS integration?

Dom...I am still waiting on the DETAILS of this...please send then to me. Thanks,

OH one more issue...a BIG issue..now are we saying I don't have to buy a new T4, T5, PA3, etc.every 2 years to stay up on tech. and to get new sounds??? OH, yes, I just upgrade what I have....sounds like the low cost long term ownership winner to me. As long as the harware is top quality

Lee S.

Lee dont forget you can also use "Qranger" program on the MS to play styles.......also everything loads almost instantly I'm hearing also....
Lee this MS 76 might be the pefect unit & the LAST one you ever have to buy

Why use the Qranger only for play the styles??
Try to use the Qranger as a audio-midi SEQ integrated on MS pannel like you use for the styles..
one simple nice example for WHO like to create session:
1) open Qranger editor
2) Import one standard midifile
3) start to PLAY the midifile and edit the all sounds, volumes, engines..
4) drag new audio loops in how many audio tracks you need.
5) setup UP to 32 marker pointer where you like that the midifile+audio will continue loop, ( like the style system)
6) connect the MIC on MS
7) create a new audio track
8) press RECORD key and record your voice ove the midifile+audio
9) copy/paste audio clip and transpose it for creating harmonize of your original voice
10) SAVE the session
11) press RETURN to Styles
12) load the saved session and PLAY like one style!

Now:
Press the MS SEQ key: will move the split point to C0 and then the Song style will be never trasponed with the chords
Press MS SEQ OFF: when you change chords, the global song will be transposed in realtime by Elastique

Press the all 32 patterns for looping the desidered part of the midifile+audio tracks how you like...

this is the REAL FUN of the Qranger SEQ and not for play midi styles..
I think you got the idea.

I've been saying for a long time that the MS is being marketed to the wrong crowd. Is it an arranger.., YES it is--last time I checked the thing had chord recognition and styles with multiple variations, intros, endings, ect. Just because the preset styles may not be up to par with the competition doesn't mean the MS "is not" an arranger (because it is). How in the hell are people still confused about this issue? If the styles aren't on the same level as the others, that doesn't mean the board is suddenly NOT an arranger.

The MediaStation (IMO) should be seen as one hell of an (open) workstation with "arranger capabilities" as an ADDED BONUS! Its features for workstation use are top notch.., then you add the arranger capabilities and guess what you got... THE TRUE HYBRID that people have been bitching and complaining about for years. IT'S HERE.., IT'S ON THE MARKET and DOM makes it. How many times have we seen in the past people saying they'd love a board where they could wipe the presets (both styles and sounds) and add whatever they want! We've seen this issue brought up MANY times on the Zone. The MS's styles may not be up to par.., but it's STILL AN ARRANGER.., crappy styles, good styles, medicore styles.., whatever it ships with.., out of the box IT'S STILL AN ARRANGER. Some of the lower end Yamaha, and Casio boards have styles that many of us would consider to be an absolute JOKE.., but not one member here ever says those ARE NOT arrangers just because the styles aren't the best.

The problem the MS has (at least on this forum) is that it's so obvious the MediaStation is TOO MUCH keyboard for many here to UNDERSTAND and learn how to use. It's a COMPUTER with a kick ass fully tweeked out midi controller built around it. THIS IS WHAT SCARES MANY HERE as a lot are not interested in learning this type of OS.., there's nothing wrong with that.., but that's just how it is.

The majority of this forum is an "out of box" buyer. Very few people here do any extensive editing on their keyboards. Rather than LEARN the basics or even bother to take the time to learn THEIR CURRENT KEYBOARD..., they drop the unit without even giving it a chance and move on to the next thing...., then they bitch and moan about the board, trash it in a review..., and they didn't even take the time to really get to know that keyboard or dig into what it can really do or attempt to do any REAL EDITING. A lot of OUT OF BOXERS here PERIOD.., who are just too proud to admit the MS is way beyond their comprehension.

Look if you're not into editing styles, creating them, tweeking patches, or just freakin customizing a keyboard to all ends for YOUR personal use.., then just stay the hell away from the MS. Clearly it's not the board for you. If you're into just taking the board out of the box and not having to do anything but turn it on and press play.., they buy one from the other three makers.

The MS is a board to CUSTOMIZE..., if you're not into a "computer" environment for keyboard use.., then the MS is not for you. Buy something else. Just let the people that have bought the MS ENJOY the damn thing. Why can't MS owners be left alone to enjoy their keyboard just as so many of you guys (who post constantly) how much you enjoy your boards made by Yamaha, Korg, and Roland????

The MS really does have a market. Problem is that the average arranger keyboard player is clearly NOT that market (most obviously in the United States). I think the MS should be marketed to WorkStation buyers.., and advertised with the added bonus of arranger capabilities.

Dom.., you keep doing your thing man. Don't drop any arranger features on the MS. You've produced the TRUE fully customizable ARRANGER/SYNTH HYBRID. Do your thing man! Keep developing software for this unit.., as clearly people ARE buying it and enjoying it.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-11-2009).]

SQUEAK YOU NEED A MEDIASTATION 76 ASAP....its "perfect" for you!!!!

Dom....thank you for the explaination its so nice to have such personal support for the designer who would know better then you?
Also

Dom......would the 61 key model have all the features of the MS X-76 pro? including Mic sldiers etc etc ...as pictured here.
http://www.lionstracs.com/store/ms-x76-pro-p-102.html

No, the X-61 will have the same hardware features as the X-76 expanded, but more short for fit the 61 fatar keys and NOt DVD burn. You can use one external USB DVD.

X-76/88 PRO is comming soon with the new PCIexpress audio card, for manage up to 22 Inputs/22 Outputs, 2 foot switch pedal, 2 foot volumes, 4 Midi IN/OUT and MIC USB controls hardware on pannel.

I think also we install the new AMD3+... we will see..

So Dom can you control the mic gain leveled from sliders or knobs on board or do you have to do it from the display screen & can you control the vocal harmony from a foot switch....will AMD3+ be on the 61 also?

Workstation buyers ALREADY have the computer, the VSTi sound sets, the EFX plug ins, Workstation players and users tend not to buy anything that says Arranger or has speakers on it.

The last thing an OMB needs is a DAW on site in a live situation. In the studio historic workstation users have already migrated to DAW and have been there a long long time. Consider that with todays workstations especially Roland are practically negating even the need for a DAW as entire projects can be done inside the keyboard including vocals.

Mediastation is great idea without a defined market unless someone needs a Live DAW or is coming from the arranger world looking to expand their horizons without worrying about USB and Firewire drivers. I don't think Liontracs knows how to market this great idea.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-11-2009).]

yes it is true.
WE all can make from this keyboard what we want. It is WORKSTATION. And you can have all inside what you need.
This is endless use.

"Like it or not, many "pros" (and semi pros) still consider Arrangers no more than "toys" I know of no one who uses on in a band of any measured success.You don't simply don't see them routinely being used by well know keyboard "professionals" except perhaps by a handful of "professional" wedding singers perhaps. "

Here's an incredible pro musician using an arranger keyboard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziA8-j8qehk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye8cjq1M1dY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frtoYLjrAIM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnpqFHyMsNs&feature=related

Here is a world class pro using an arranger live on stage ...ah but he is blind some of you might say. Maybe being blind has helped this brother "see past " the blindness that keeps getting repeated on this forum about "arrangers" and "workstations"

By the way Ellis Hall composes and writes songs on this instrument and he has performed in front of thousands of people , he also has been contracted to write songs, TV, Radio and Film sound tracks as well as demoing for other pro audio equipment and yet he chooses a PSR to perform with and compose with.

Show me one major recording artist who is using the MS ???? Just one..... I have no problem with the MS. I am just saying that you cant just follow the crowd , make your own decisions about what you use to perform with in a studio or live. You cant say that no pros use an arranger live as if thats any kind of valid statement about the instruments capabilities anymore than i can say i have never seen a pro musician using the Mediastaion live as a valid statement of its capabilities. If you know your instrument and your equipment you can do anything. Talent always trumps technology ......ALWAYS

And i would humbly suggest that the problem that Dom and anyone that owns or promotes the MS as an even middle line arranger is the talent required to put the content in the instrument. Having DAW capabilities, Livestyler capabilities and VST capabilities will not help.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 03-11-2009).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 03-11-2009).]

Nashville Music Row users Yamaha PSR arranger workstations for their writers when they brainstorm.

Melissa Manchester, Martina McBride, David Paich (Toto) , David Bryant (Bon Jovi), are a few others that use Yamaha arrangers as writing tools.

Ian

Im not surpised at all they sound great for anything in the right hands.

It's not just Yamaha arrangers. Arranger are EVERYWHERE. Just because you don't see them on stages doesn't mean they're not being used in studios. Arrangers by Yamaha, Korg, and Roland ARE in studios of the pros and in their homes. The problem is MANY are too proud to admit they use them

Arrangers DO get used by the pros every day. Just because you don't see them on stage doesn't mean they're not getting used by them. I've gone into studios to find great set ups.., AND arrangers. I was really shocked when going into one guys studio and he APOLIGIZED for having a Korg PA-80 in his studio. Many pros feel they're not going to get taken seriuosly if they have an arranger. I disagree with that.., but hey that's the age old stereotype for ya.., and it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

And thats exactly the reason i and many like me then would never by the keyboard, see, there
is no win win in the advertisement, you in one type of crowd and you lose the others.
As for me personally, on whatever machine: Triton, Motif, Fantom, PA, Ketrons SD and else,
me and my comunity of musicians dont use not even 1%, i repeat, 100% that comes out of the
keyboard is either programme by me or them. Sounds and Styles together, Western or Traditional.

"As for me personally, on whatever machine: Triton, Motif, Fantom, PA, Ketrons SD and else,
me and my comunity of musicians dont use not even 1%, i repeat, 100% that comes out of the
keyboard is either programme by me or them. Sounds and Styles together, Western or Traditional."

This kind of blows a gaping hole in the MS argument doesnt it . All this stuff about having to take what the manufacturer gives you from the top manufacturers and yet Nedim and his country men still take these "closed system " instruments and create all the content themselves anyway. Just proves my point. You can be as creative as you want to be with these instruments and the only limit is your own talent and creativity.

My last point. If you switched off the arranger function completely and simply played the keyboard, used the one touch settings to split the keyboard or change sounds as and when you want then the arranger keyboard that everyone seems to get so hung up on because an ordinary keyboard just like a motif , triton,M3. No difference .....

I never claimed they were not songwriting tools. Thats the reason I bought one. But even in that regard they are not enough by themsleves to create a production.. I just don't see anyone playing them in a band live...Yeah there are exceptions to every rule. Then again why would a touring pro use an arranger when they can have the whole band?

Another open source keyboard company http://www.openlabs.com/nekoxxl-overview.html


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 03-11-2009).]

Well, it would be a bit odd to use an arranger in a band...they'd be wasted in that situation....they are mainly solo instruments, although they surely do sound as good as any workstation/synth, and better than some.

I've made a very good living using an arranger; it's a very handy tool for a solo keyboard player and/or song writer.

Ian

DUH! If you have a drummer, Bass player, Lead guitars, fill guitars, mayb a sax player, maybe a few singers...why do you need an arranger? You don't.

Suppose that's why you don't see them on stage in bands? Yep!

They are one man band instruments.
Home and PRO.

Lee S.

But the key point that is continually overlooked is that if you dont use a single arranger style you still have a great sounding keyboard and if musicians would stop being led by the nose they would see that EVERY KEYBOARD should be an arranger or arranger kind. You can use what you need for any given situation whether in a band, in a studio or OMB. And indeed this is exactly what we are seeing in almost every workstation right now. All of them to some degree or other are carrying arranger type functions, call them Arps , Call them patterns, Call it Karma, they are all marketing hype for the same principle. I play my keyboard probably 50% as a straight up keyboard workstation and the other 50% as an arranger for composing and playing live with a choir and sometimes with other live musicians in straight keyboard mode and arranger mode. No one has ever said to me " Worth you shouldnt be using an arranger with this band" or "you cant use this aranger to record tracks for our songs". In fact saturday just gone a friend of mine asked me to record some tracks for him based on some loops i had preprogrammed into my arranger keyboard that he liked . He was astonished at what my PA1x could do and he kept asking me if i had bought external samples for my instrument. When i told him that i was using all internal sounds he just kept shaking his head. I programmed this bass funk grove on my keyboard a few weeks ago and a bass player who was listening thought i had sampled a bass grove and was playing back the sample. Listen to the groove here. Forget the lead sounds and concentrate on the drums and bass. Its really time to take the blinkers off and realise yth incredible flexible machines we have under our finger tips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQql7g_kcX0&feature=channel_page

I'm still VERY interested in this board, and it's a relief for me to hear that many songwriters on this board (and Nashville) use arrangers as songwriting tools because that's what I bought it for.

Ironically, I have ended up using some arranger styles on stage - almost solely for "Old time" dancing - I mean that literally btw (Barndances, Swing Waltzes, Pride of Erin's etc)


Don't have to sell me on the PA1-X though, lol VERY live sounding sounds right OTTB.

Hi Frank,

Now that you have had a few days with the Mediastation, what is your opinion?

BTW: The link in your signature is non-functional. You need to move the [/url] directly behind http://www.audioworksct.com. It is currently behind the phone number.

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

The more I sit down with it the more I learn and realize how open ended this is.

It's a system that has endless possibilities, it is not, and I repeat not a keyboard for anyone who just wants to turn it on and go, and I don't mean it sounds bad and needs to be re-worked, it needs to be fitted and adjusted for you use, like a fine TAILORED suit.

Hi Frank. I honestly am not trying to cause trouble or scare you off but are you going to stick with this machine for a few months and then show us what you actually did with it to tailor it to your needs ? Again i am not trying to create anything here. I just want to hear what the MS sounds like after someone has had time to make it into the sound they want to hear. I am not telling you that you have to do this ...it would just be nice to settle this matter .

Difference, of course, is that a fine tailored suit is made by a TAILOR, not you with needle and thread! How many of us a great tailors?

And why wouldn't anyone want something you can sit down and turn on and play immediately? Everyone seems to think that adding this capability would take away from what it can already do. Utter rubbish...

All it does is ADD to what it can already do.

Diki & others MS critics,

With all due respect, you guys probably need to tone it down on your criticisms of MS especially the ones directed personally to synthzoner.

Why ?

MS owners are few in numbers. We need them to give us feedback and helps !! It is to our advantage. Come on, you guys ! We have to play nice. We really need Dom here so we can encourage him to develop the MS to our likings (arranger players'). We have to know how to balance out our criticisms. Someone here needs to send emails to Dom personally to ask him to come back.

Look past Dom's arrogance and see the potential. It is way past time now to stop criticizing heavily and it is time to repair the bridge.

Right now, Dom is our best hope to develop the ultimate arranger. The other big mfr is busy creating closed system and milking every penny out of us. At this moment in time.

I also hope the new US dealer for MS can filter out the good stuff and get to know the beast for the rest of us here.

-Han

Some people here do not like to play nice...it's just in their nature.

Don't pay attention to them. Do your own thing and share with us all. We are listening carefully.

Lee S.

Some people need to understand that any critiscim has been aimed at the instruments short coming and not the owners. And if any of my postings have been disrespectful to an MS owner then i apologize unreservedly.

Dom is a big man, not a child. He came on the forum purely to tout his product and he has made some incredibly boastful claims of this instrument over the last 4 years that simply have never been fulfilled. He has also been incredibly rude in his defence of his product. Thats a big mistake for any Salesman to maketo the people he is trying to sell his goods to. If Dom has decided to leave then thats his choice. But its probably not a bad decision as now he can spend time looking for customers that want his product rather than trying to persuade people that we should want his product. I have said before and i will say it again, i wish him and his product well. But like anything , if you try and sell something to people you have to show what the product does that meets the needs, wants and desires of the customer it is aimed at. Dom has not grasped this and has simply produced pages and pages of technical specs to sell his instrument or packing the instrument with tonnes of features, NONE OF WHICH CAN BE DEMONSTRATED TO APPEAL TO REAL WORLD ARRANGER CUSTOMERS and then infering and sometimes downright insulting the intelligence of his potential customres because we have not supposedly grasped the concept of the MS !

In the last few posts Dom seems to have realised that he needs to Focus his attention elsewhere and that as far as i am concerned was the smartest move he has made in terms of the success of his product in the last 4 years. Once again i wish him well.

However i see no harm whatsoever in asking MS users to show us why they love their instrument so much. I dont ask other keyboard users because examples abound everywhere that show why anyone would consider them to be great instruments.

Now this is not a challenge to MS users, and its not a reprimand. All i am saying is your skin is too thin. A request to demonstrate why you love what you play is not rude or insulting so whats the problem ? If you dont want to demonstrate it thats fine. Dont. But dont get upset if you post how great the instrument is on the forum and then people like me naturally ask you to show me . That makes no sense.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 03-14-2009).]

Careful, spalding...

Making total sense on this forum has not got anyone much other than insults and bile...

Curiously, the same people that think that the MS owners don't need to illustrate their points are the same ones that LOVE to hear other people's work, and discuss the work... or the arranger.

Sauce for ther goose should be sauce for the gander...

I know, I know... maybe it will bug someone, but I GOT to say it. Personally, I think the only reason someone would NOT post any of their music made on any specific arranger is that they have NO confidence in it at all... But they will brag, and brag, and talk and talk. Bullsh*t walks. Music talks.

There is simply no way of getting round this. If the MS had killer factory demos, sure, you could say 'why bother' But they don't. If you claim that the MS sounds MUCH better than the factory demos (that ALL of us have listened to and mostly been underwhelmed with, to be kind), why would you NOT post it? Other than perhaps you DON'T think it is as good as a T3 or even a G70.

Because, if you do, what have you got to worry about?

Personally, I think it is MUCH easier to say the MS is great than it is to actually MAKE it great...

Fight the good fight, spalding...

The reason why some MS users would not post anything is because of the negative views of the MS by persons who have never seen nor heard an MS in person.

What may be good for me may not be good for other persons. The critics are trying to convince us that they would not judge the person but the keyboard. But with the MS, it is the person you will be judging because it is the person who is creating and modifying the content. So if I modify styles and sounds or create new styles and sounds and you don’t like it, then it is me your are insulting not the keyboard.

What a lot of persons forget is that there has been a number of MS demos and some people did not like them.

Most if not all of the MS’s skeptics and detractors have already formed a strong opinion of the MS’s capability as an arranger for their personal use.
Does any one think for one second that if some one puts up a very good style demo (and lets say that everyone agrees that the demo sound very good) of the MS that such a demo will change any ones opinion here?

I didn’t think so.


I know of one person who has an MS who visited the SZ and said he would never put up a demo here because there is already a negative bias to the MS with their conclusive statements so asking persons to put up demos seems disingenuous.

you are very mistaken. I have never seen nor heard live the Korg Oasys, the Fantom G, the Tyros 3 but i have seen and heard great demos on those instruments. I guess i can make some form of comparative judgement without seeing or hearing the instrument live just on that basis.

However the premise of the MS is that you can tailor it to meet your own needs using pretty much any sound you wish to use from anywhere and that you can programme your own styles so that they sound better than what can be obtained from a "closed arranger".I remember Dom saying that you were not forced to use the manufacturers styles and sounds and that you could use your own etc .And the MS enables this to be done easily because of its integration of numerous style making/editing features and its ability to enable multiple VST's to be used to generate your chosen sound source from the best availbale and not just what one manufacturer gives you . Am i right so far ????

If someone comes on this forum , anyone with any style they have produced themselves on any arranger and says " heres a style i have made have a listen and tell me what you think" then thy will recieve critiscism , but that cuts both ways in that they will be told whats good about the style and whats not good about the style. If you cant take that kind of critiscism then i respect that and would advise you not to post anything.

But if someone has an MS, or a PA1X,or a Tyros 3 and says they can make styles that sound better than the Manufacturers styles then forgive me if i ask you to show me that.

Now if an MS user in particular cannot make styles better than the top 3 Manufacturers styles with all the tools that it possess and all the features it boasts and all the VST's money can buy, and the ease at which it can convert existing styles blah blah blah ....then what the Hell was the point of buying the MS???????????????? .

Can you see the problem with the premise of the MS ????I would bet my beloved PAX on this one....If any musician cant make great styles on any of the top 3 "Closed System" keybaords they have no chance of doing it on the MS either.

The purpose of asking MS owners to put up some demos of styles they made or converted is not to critique thier skill , it is merely to see if the "hype' and claims of the MS in the real world carries any water. Thats a legitimate aim and there is nothing disenguous about it.

You wont get unilateral agreement on anything thats a fact .But most people know when they are hearing good quality well balanced styles even if its not to heir liking.

But lets agree on this, if you have purchased the MS to create your own styles for arranger use, you had better be very good at making styles in the first place If you want to use this instrument primarily as an arranger. And if you possessed such a skill you probably would be just as well off with any top 3 arranger right now whether "open" or "closed".

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 03-14-2009).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 03-14-2009).]

The point that is being made is that it really does not matter how good or bad one user makes or modify a style.

If user A makes or modifies a style on the MS. And that user likes the style for his use and purpose, then that user is happy. User A was not making the styles to sound like A T3 factory style.

Now if User A puts up a demo and user B hears said demo and does not like it, does that mean the MS is no good.
Does that mean that user A is a bad style maker?
The answer to those questions is NO.
What may be good for A may not be good for B. But user B will erroneously say the MS and user A is bad.
So that is why a demo will not help any one in the case of an MS demo because there is no common denominator.
Again, the mediastation was never advertised to be the greatest arranger OTB.

It makes keyboard playing integrated so that you have an arranger, synth and workstation all in one. And that is the concept a lot of persons don’t seem to get. The greatness of the MS arranger is the fact that it is open and it is up to the skill of the user to make it the great arranger for that specific user.




[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 03-14-2009).]

If your worried about making styles, then this program http://www.pgmusic.com/ will work with any open keyboard, and is more flexible then any hardware arranger system.

Regards

Bill

with respect Genesys we are not talking about taste in style. We know some peole will like korg arrangements better than roland or yamaha . We re talking about mechanical sounding styles, unbalanced styles styles that glitch or dont sound right when chords chnage. This is what i have heard on the MS factory demos, not user demos. And of the user demos i have heard of styles made by individuals they were what i would expect from someone who did not make styles for a living.....and they would have sounded as mediocre on any arranger keyboard. So whats the big deal with the MS if with all its tools , all its features we are now 4-5 years later and noone has shown its potential..not even its makers ..... And i remember distinctly that the MS was pushed as the mother of all arrangers. That tune only changed when no one could demonstrate its true arranger qualities as being even at best as good as a middle line arranger. But i am glad that it is not now being promoted as such. Now its being called a work station with arranger abilities. Thats far more accurate than what was bing pushed out from the begining. I guess now i have scared off even more potential MS Demo's . Oh well whats the use....

I was just going to record a style, so folks can hear what the MS can play..This was a Yamaha Tyros style, and the MS XG sound bank....but sure enough as I started to record..I decided to play a song..It honestly just came to me to play on the spur of the moment....So without any thought or preparation.."hear" it is..

Remember you guys are suppose to listen to the MS ...not the player..

The glitches are me..trying to think of chord changes...not the MS..

The point is..the MS can play all your Yamaha styles...and sound decent enough with the XG sound bank..........to get paid..


[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 03-14-2009).]

https://rcpt.yousendit.com/663941485/2e9779b72206deb345c80f500a764060


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 03-14-2009).]

You know Fran... that's by FAR superior to anything I have heard at the MS site - warts and all. A bit more on the accompaniment parts volume wise, and it's good...

What's amazing is that Dom can't find anyone at his end that can play this well. I mean, listen to the appalling LS demo at Lionstracs Youtube, and you have to shake your head...

As to the sound of the style itself... It's not bad... you say that's the XG soundset? Perhaps, Dom having shown an inability to make even a passable demo, you could lay down a bunch more of these to showcase the Yamaha styles? Don't even bother with a RH if you don't want to. Keep the chords simple, and let us hear how well the MS handles the Yamaha styles.

And seeing as how you can get a good LS demo going, how about demoing a few of the MS ROM styles (I know it doesn't have ROM, but you know what I mean ) for comparison purposes. Just OOTB, if you will (that will give us an idea of how much or little work they might need just to tweak)... Just out of curiosity, how long did it take you to tweak that style?

BTW, I now want an apology from everyone that posted on this forum that the MS can't get a decent shake...

One tune doesn't settle the matter, but it certainly settles the 'myth' of unreasoned antipathy to it. Make some reasonable music on it, and it will get as fair a shake as any other keyboard showcased here.

And if I were Dom, I'd be sending him a check to make a bunch more..

Fran,
Thanks very much for the demo...nice job.
Question please. Is what we heard a Yamaha style converted on MS (to native style on MS) using EMC? or was it a Yamaha style played straight up using Live-Styler on the MS.

Thanks,
Lee S.

Very tasteful Fran thanks so much for putting that up for us to hear.

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step...

the file wont open for me. It downloads but wont play.

Make sure your player will accept a 320Kbs mp3 file, if not just try another player. (WMP 11 works fine)
Hope this helps

Bill

Diki, Lee..that was a Tyros style, not tweaked or converted...Dom has that Live Styler integrated with the MS control..It works in exactly the same manner as the Qranger section of the MS..Dom developed the XG sound bank to use with the MS/LS...

I also have my G70 conversions to Yamaha (I used EMC)...this gives me my go to styles that I am use to on the G70..Likewise, not tweaked..although it is completely possible to do so....For the most part they seem usable to me....Keep in mind, I am using the LS/MS, with the XG sound bank...and I found the sounds more than pleasing..

If I get some time this week , I will record a variety of styles, with simple chord changes..I also have some Korg styles , I converted to use with my G70, and then again converted the converted file to Yamaha format...and they are also decent to use..

The styles that Dom ships with the MS, include a lot of Tyros styles, a selection of G70 styles, and an assortment of others...
There is a cool K7 style in the selection too...

The one thing I will change is to lessen the bass frequencies , OOTB...Compared to the new XG sound bank...they are a little dark...not bad , just different..

The "new" MS is enjoyable to play, and yes it does cover the arranger play.....a lot better than my "old" MS...

Hi Fran.

Thanks a million for taking the time to upload that. That was by far the best demo of the mediastation to date.

Regards.
James.

W-o-w!
The 1st i ever got to hear of this only talked about Media Station!!Very much appreciated for this latest upload.
I beg for some dance music pretty please!!Just one!that would tell me everything i ever wanted to know about the MS!

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 03-16-2009).]

Mr9000, you have to get on the same page here...

The demo was posted to show the MS with the newly designed Live Styler..enabling users to play the Yamaha styles direct without any conversion or edits...The MS also has the new XG sound bank, automatically selected when playing a Yamaha style..


It wasn't to showcase any other feature..


Maybe we should start talking about what the MS does that your old 9000 can't do..

You remember, like factory support...

Fran,
Thanks for the clarification...As I expected...The LS with XG does make MS shine...
Of course I would like to hear more style and intros, vars and ending of those styles...as you have time.

Lee S.

In all fairness, Fran, you can't complain when you get honest opinions. It's everyone's right, including yours...

Do you have access to an S900 or T3? (come to think of it, i know you have access to the S900 )

I think it would be fascinating to hear the SAME style done on the MS LS section, and then played by the S900. I think abacus did this for some Yamaha styles on the Wersi one time...

Apples to apples is the way to find out if good is 'good enough'...

S900 style demos available here:

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/List/MediaList/0,,CNTID%25253D559641%252526CTID%25253D205500,00.html

Fran, I enjoyed your demo.

Frankie, have you spent more time playing the MSX?

Have you tried the Steinway_B giga piano yet?


Richard

Yes, I have, very nice sounding, I haven't had the chance to put the time in with the X-76 I thought I had,

I am trying to fit it in.

Care to cherry pick off that list Donny put up and play a few with LS, Fran?

I've got to admit, I'm mostly interested in how well the Mega guitars and Mega basses translate. That's the main thing that impresses me about the Yamaha styles, anyway, so how well LS does this is important, I think.

That jazz demo used the jazz guitar, which I don't think there IS a Mega version, is there? Perhaps a better comparison would be a modern S900 style using the Mega guitars?

BUT,i don't want to hear yammy styles,alread got a bunch.I WANT MS goodums!!!I have edited my "my 9000 can do it better",It was stupid of me!

I beg of you Fran:
to throw in a Trance-like(not yamaha based) MP3 upload..please please please.I will not judge it openly if that is acceptable!I just want to hear NEW musical blood,not something that is in my presents already.See I WANT to desparatly hear/feel/taste/see/ indeed what the MS CAN DO THAT MY old carcass 9000 CAN'T DO pretty please oh thoust who's lucky enough holdst&tinker with a MS.I would l-o-v-e to be in envy is all!
Pretty please Fran,a trance??

The style Fran used has no mega voiced guitar..."JazzGuitar" is a "Cool!" voice...best styles for showcasing mega guitar/bass would be:

Worship Slow...mega bass and guitars

Worship Med...same as above

Unplugged 1...mega guitar...no bass

Unplugged 2...mega guitar and bass

Guitar Serenade...mega guitar and bass.

Frankly Soul...mega guitar, bass and Tenor Sax.

These are on both the Tyros2 and PSR-S900.

Ian

Mr9000, I am not even sure if I know what "trance music" even means...

Basically, Dance styles.
P.S. how many internal styles does the MS have?

This is not MEGAVOICE. This is MEDIASTATION MSX 76

http://www.esnips.com/doc/dd35fe8c-73d7-42ab-bbee-ed444edd229e/HOUSE-STYLE

This is QRANGER STYLE with loopsmasters.
I used simple example of combination: waves + midi.

Best regards.

Magica ALFA

This is great Dance music and it sounds good , until you play more than one chord...

The problem isnt playing loops AFG. I can do that all day long on My PA1X. Its programming styles that change chord melodically when you change chords and doesnt just transpose for example the bass line into the new key you play. Thats where korgs 6 Chord variations per style comes into its own and where the hard work in good style creation distinguishes itself from merely producing a loop or converting a style.

Play that same loop again and add 5 or 6 chord changes, post that up and you will see what i mean. Good styles takes programming, not just cutting and pasting riffs into a 4 bar or 8 bar loop.

Glad someone else has come upon that one... Fed up of being the only one pointing out potential roadblocks for the arranger player!

MIDI based arrangers for donkey's years have had features that restrict melodic lines (including bass lines) to a specific range. Newer ones will even adjust lines according to inversion played.

But as soon as you convert a style section into a loop, and use audio pitch transposition to change it rather than MIDI, you end up with much greater, often unmusical jumps.

I personally feel there is a fundamental difference between creating music with loops, and with an arranger. In general, when you create music with loops, you create the music AROUND the loops, accept what they can and can't do, and let it go at that. Styles, on the other hand, are used to play music already written, AS WELL as creating original stuff. And the problem with existing music is it takes no notice of whether your loops have all the chords, fills, variations etc., that it actually needs.

Each has it's own legitimate usage, but often shoehorning loops to do what an arranger player often needs is an exercise in frustration, as it is rare to find any loop library with comprehensive chord and extension choices (sound familiar? ) fro importing into your loopstation. And, as is pointed here, even grabbing audio loops from existing arrangers you already have (and what's the point of that if you already have the arranger? ) doesn't solve the pitch transposition issues.

There really IS some very sophisticated stuff going on under the hood of an arranger that currently, no loop technology can copy... or at least not without a herculean sampling effort that basically makes using loops moot. Might as well use the arranger you sample them from!

Is this some joke of malicousness?I TRIED the download option but for some insanity i D-loaded a entire stupid program called 'imesh.com',and even after the stupidness,there sure was no hint of any music called "house".What the heavens?
Oh & i also clicked 'download this song and WTF i got ainto a site 'Teen.comtv'




[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 03-19-2009).]

Here is other link:
http://plac.siol.net/index.php?m=f99126fe&a=fc84cfd3