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#372124 - 09/19/13 07:57 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 2071
Loc: Fruita, Colorado, USA
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Tostie,
Suffice it to say that people have bad taste. Instead of Sinatra, Fitzgerald and company, they prefer "Rap" and even the supposed educated TV personalities etc refer to it as music. Think about it. If Rap is music then Mary Had A Little Lamb is some of the most sophisticated poetry ever written.
I bet in an average audience anywhere on Earth the majority of them will not be able to sing a simple melody in tune. I've had people argue that Johnny Cash and others were the greatest vocalist of all time.
Some of those guys were very entertaining making them terrific entertainers, but not by a long shot a good vocalist nor a good musician. Many were just at the right place at the right time and they became famous "entertainers," and they made plenty of money. Very, very few great musicians ever made plenty of money.
When I was in my teens our band was learning "September Song" and other standards and our competition was trying to play those songs too, with three chords. It didn't matter to the audience,they liked our competitors better then our band.
They had better equipment then us and very attractive uniforms. It's all about showmanship, not how good of a musician the person is. They were better entertainers then we were.
It even gets worse if the audience is intoxicated. It's life friend! Like my deceased sister-in-law said: "Life Sucks."Live it.
I go to the local bar and restaurant occasionally when I can't get the Saints or LSU on my TV. By the 4th quarter they start Karaoke. I can't believe the nerve of some people up there trying to sing. That's fine they are having fun and that is great. The sad part is that some of the audience think that that person is a terrific singer. Go figure.
_________________________
I'm not prejudiced, I hate everybody!! Ha ha! My Sister-In-Law had this tee shirt. She was a riot!!!
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#372125 - 09/19/13 09:17 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Joost, let me say that you are an exceptional player, however, I agree with everything Boo stated above. I guess I'm somewhat fortunate in that I've always had a decent voice. My vocals provided me with a good living when I was doing voice-overs for car commercials on local radio and TV, it kept the family fed when I did newscasts on the radio, and it still provides me with a good income as an OMB entertainer. That said, I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination, a good musician. Sure, I can play most of the chords I need to put most songs together, and provide some right-hand lead and comps, but there are 12-year-old kids that can play circles around me. Now, I have performed in Europe when I was a young kid in a small band when in the employ of the U.S. Navy. And at every location we performed, mostly in the Mediterranean area, the audiences loved us, and we were not that good by a long shot. I'm not sure, however, if they loved my vocals, or just loved American music because it was new and exciting to European audiences back in the late 1950s. We played mainly in bars, but the only drunks we had to contend with were American sailors. Boo's statement pertaining to Karaoke is right on the money. My sister and brother-in-law go to the local American Legion every Friday night for Karaoke. Neither of them sing, and they applaud for nearly every singer that gets up there and makes horrible noises they sincerely believe sounds great. When I ask my sister why she applauds for those horrific vocals, she usually responds "We'll, they just having fun, and we have fun listening to them." For the life of me, I've never understood that mentality - especially when it comes to music. Gary 
Edited by travlin'easy (09/19/13 09:21 AM)
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#372126 - 09/19/13 09:19 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Hi Joost
I am taking your question at face value, without any criticism intended.
I think that since I consider you to be an above average musician, and, would only be suitable for weddings, the expectations are very high. I have always know that there has always been a lot of talent there, but I am surprised it has come to this.
As far as Karaoke is concerned, I run a weekly show, as well as playing and singing at other venues. I know that some of my people applaud less than stellar performance by some of the singers as merely a courtesy.
Bernie
Edited by Bernie9 (09/19/13 09:24 AM)
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#372129 - 09/19/13 11:01 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
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Tostie,
Me thinks you have hit a raw nerve and Bernie thinks you are above average, good, I would go with that, expect I would put you way way above average, I would even goes as far as to say you are the best player I have heard on a T4, as good as if not better than the people who work for and demo Yamaha keyboards.
But hey Tostie this is just my opinion of you, not everyone who sees and hears your work on SZ is going to say that, or post good reviews (figure it out).
People who put up their work on SZ are not going to get criticised, they are not going to be told they are crap, average, below average or what ever, my wife tells me I am playing better these days, she's losing here hearing, people on SZ are gentle folk, they only go into hyper drive when you tell them their keyboard is crap.
I think the acceptance level in homes for the elderly is not a good place to judge anyone's playing, not to be disrespectful the judges are past there best at judging, are lot tone deaf!
A friend of mine is manager at an APH in the UK, he booked a chap with a guitar one night for entertainment, the chap was very good, after the show was over my friend took two one chaps up in the lift to bed, he said to them " what did you think of the entertainment ?" one chap said "what entertainment!!!"
Now if you sing as good as you play Tostie the world is your oyster.
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#372131 - 09/19/13 11:42 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14282
Loc: NW Florida
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This is not a PROFESSIONAL Arranger players' forum, Tostie..!
We have players of all skill levels and ages. I think what you'll notice is that the regular working players here, at least those outside the NH circuit, rarely post any work. They generally don't need validation of their skills by those here (who seem predominantly amateur in skill level), and on the whole, little is received well unless it fits into their small, blinkered view of music (Boo's rant is fairly typical... 'New music bad, old music good!'), so why bother?
Overall, we have a plethora of demos by elderly players, playing elderly music to the elderly. Talk about a captive audience!
Secondly, Tostie, we don't have the gigs for arranger players that Europe provides. Other than NH type gigs, solo keyboard gigs are few and far between. For starters, this isn't a country where people tend to get together and sing... Karaoke is something of an exception, but rather than the EU model of people singing TOGETHER, karaoke is more a watchers sport, laughing while your co-workers squirm uncomfortably and sing badly! Schadenfreude, to be honest. We seem to be gaining more and more of this in our 'popular' entertainment over here, lately. Bit like Germany in the 20's, and we know what happened to them!
But, on the whole, Americans don't gather together to sing, and need someone to provide backing... This tends to mean that in general, keyboard players with real skills still play in real bands, and only those that can't end up playing the NH circuit, or functions for the elderly. And those gigs are few and far between enough that there's no incentive to learn to play well, give each other competition for gigs, and allow the cream to rise to the top.
As I've read in thread after thread here, most arranger players' priorities seem to lie in how portable and easy to set up their rigs can get, or how small a PA they can get away with, and rarely is any desire to try to PLAY better discussed..!
I think that if we had the employment opportunities that some EU countries afforded, we'd see a migration of the really good players away from bands onto the arranger, but right now, generally, if you WANT to play with a real band and have skills, you can. Why would anyone want to play hoary old music to hoaky old codgers if they didn't HAVE to? LOL
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#372136 - 09/19/13 12:28 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Diki]
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
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This is not a PROFESSIONAL Arranger players' forum, Tostie..!
Diki, In a nut shell i.e. a paragraph, how would you describe SZ, a site that so many who are banned want to comeback and those banned have a following that want them to come back. There is some draw from SZ, there's a hard core of posters and perhaps a lot of people who look and won't come near, you can tell by the hits. SZ was once fun and in particularly the fun hinged on new arrangers, like I said earlier " My arrangers better than your arranger  " Is that what's it's come down to. BTW if new music is crap, don't listen to it' Boom Boom Boom
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey
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#372138 - 09/19/13 12:47 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14282
Loc: NW Florida
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Nobody, to my knowledge is 'banned' here, Tony. At least, not recently. In fact, notice Boo's reappearance? LOL
All that is happening is those that cannot tell the difference between disagreement and downright personal rudeness and character attacks are given some time away to reconsider their grammar..! But a complete ban? Haven't seen one of those in ages.
I think, TBH, if you take a look back in the archives, you'll see on the whole, nothing has changed. This has ALWAYS been a 'mine's better than yours' forum..! We haven't really added a whole lot of new members (which kind of reflects how poorly arrangers sell in the English speaking market compared to synths and WS's) and those still here are getting more and more entrenched and inflexible. But a look back in the archives gets to be quite deja vu, sometimes!
I think SZ is still fun, and still revolves around chewing the fat over new arrangers (the S950, BK-9 and PA900 have provided endless discussion, lately) and getting up in yo grill about which one is 'best'!
The truth is though, with work, just about any of them now will do. For what we tend to make them do (few are pushing the boundaries of new music with them), any of them is very capable.
Kind of takes the fun out of it, doesn't it?!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#372144 - 09/19/13 02:37 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3230
Loc: Dallas, Texas
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Jost,
I think the level of musicianship is definitely higher in Europe. I guess it’s the tradition of classical training. I’m sure my playing level would be much higher if I started off with classical training as a kid. But sometimes classical training can get in the way of creativity. Nobody can deny that that the best jazz, blues, rock, and county players are from the USA. Europeans and Asian players that deal with these styles look to the great US players for inspiration (and imitation)
Also it’s extremely rare to find anyone playing professional on arranger keyboard in the USA. Solo/duo acts are usually guitarists, pianists or sometimes horn players playing with tracks. Of course there are exceptions, like DNJ, UD, Don M, Gary, Hammer, Bill… that are out there working everyday on arranger keyboard but I bet for every pro arranger keyboards players there are hundreds of pro solo guitar players.
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#372146 - 09/19/13 02:54 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Tony, Most of the regulars here ARE professional players/entertainers, most have, at one time or another, have either been in a band, or in many instances, had their own band(s). Diki seems to enjoy knocking the NH circuit guys, intimating they couldn't get a job with what he refers to as a REAL band. Hey' it's just Diki being Diki. These guys are working 5 to 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, and most, including myself, are completely booked for 2014 and part of 2015. They're in high demand for weddings, private parties, and some still occasionally play the club and bar circuit, often filling in for someone who has other commitments, equipment failures, or is seriously ill. There are players on this forum that ARE professionally trained musicians, but they don't feel a compelling need to brag about it. There are forum members here that have MORE technical expertise about the inner workings of arranger keyboards than anyone could imagine in their wildest dreams, again people that don't try to dazzle anyone with their level of expertise. But if you need help with a problem, they're the first ones to provide assistance. Those are the folks that I look up to and highly respect on this and other similar forums. And, ironically, many of them play the NH circuit - it's where the money is, at least in this part of the world. From my perspective, they ARE professionals in every sense of the word. Not only are they skilled musician/entertainers, but additionally, they are skilled businessmen and women as well. I guess in Holland and northern Europe every entertainer is a highly skilled, and trained musician/entertainer. I wouldn't know because it has been more than a half-century since I was there. Sure, I went to clubs and bars in that part of the world that featured musical entertainment, but I just don't recall them being any better, or worse, than entertainers in any other part of the world. In fact, some of the best I've encountered lately have been at Mexican seaside resorts. They were indeed incredible entertainers. Cheers, Gary Cheers, Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#372147 - 09/19/13 02:55 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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I am sure he meant "exclusively" professional.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#372158 - 09/19/13 08:50 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Diki]
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
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Of course I meant not 'exclusively' professional...
And sorry, but the vast majority of NH and senior entertainers I've heard here couldn't get a playing job in a real band in MY area. You are actually required to play more than hold a chord down with one hand and play the melody in the other (badly)!
There are some quite excellent singers amongst these players, but 'players'? Sorry.
The thing that worries me the most is, if these guys actually played with real bands in their younger days, what happened? Did they lose all sense of time and groove? Did they lose their ability to improvise a nice solo? Did they forget about chord substitutions, and voice leading? Has playing an arranger stunted them musically THAT MUCH? LOL
I'd better sell all mine, just in case... Now that Diki has come out in the open with this I have to agree with him on this one in it's entirety, well if you post your work anywhere be prepare to be shot at, 1000 yards between the eyes, splat!!! I think there is only Diki who has the cojones to say it. BTW Diki, sell what !, not in vogue anymore your stuff, unless you have been spending your hard earned cash on some tasty gear, the T5 is out anytime now, available in your area! play like Tostie then.
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#372161 - 09/19/13 09:31 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2207
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
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I'll apologize in advance if my words offend anyone, as that's not my intent. I'm merely trying to add my two cents in a substantive way, which may ruffle some feathers...
That said...
To my ears, my favorite arranger performers do seem to come from across the water. For example, I really like what Andrea does...Its not so much technically impressive, but his taste for what he puts out there. Its polished, its arranged well, etc.
From here in the States, my experience in hearing other OMB-ers whether in person or via websites like this has been pretty underwhelming. There's certainly a different grading scale for people who consider themselves professional versus people just playing as a hobby.
Two acts that stand out to me that are State based are Randy Sherwood, who I think puts out an outstanding product, and Donny Pesce. That may surprise some who may remember Donny & I banging heads a few times. All that aside, I really like Donny's approach. He knows what he's good at, he knows how to market himself, he knows how to keep his audiences happy. Is he the best player around here? No. Is he the best vocalist? again, no. But who cares? He's better than most guys out there and when you put it all together in a package as he has, he just crushes most of his competition.
Randy is a highly skilled player who time and time again puts out a very polished product. One very talented man, to be sure.
I obviously won't name anyone who's work I don't care for, but there is some positively dreadful stuff being posted to various websites that I can't for the life of me begin to understand why.
To bring this back full circle, I wonder if our friends in Europe are (for whatever reason) more self critical than most of us are here in the States? Being more self critical could explain why some feel the Euro players are superior to home grown players.
Interesting subject...
Edited by Bill in Dayton (09/19/13 09:33 PM)
_________________________
Bill in Dayton
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#372162 - 09/19/13 09:41 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
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Bill,
I must be a little bit like being gay, it's all out in the open now, a few should be relieved, now we all know they are not really professional, even though they are being paid, according to Dikipedia. I have been to a number of hotels in Spain and the level of playing is pretty good I must say, I have not had to go to bed early, one chap in was setting up his Ketron SD1 some years back and he said did I want to play so I did, I played "I Just Called to say I love you" the audience clapped like hell, all SZ couldn't have been there that night surely.
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#372165 - 09/20/13 01:27 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Bill in Dayton]
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 1384
Loc: koudekerke, Holland.
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Like Don I am somewhat hesitant to enter in this discussion, not to say a little uncomfortable. I am in the dark as to why Joost , a fellow countryman of mine who lives at only 15 miles from where I reside, should have entered this post. I am all for calling a spade a spade but this feels wrong somehow, allow me to alleborate. Yes it is true that there is probably no country in the world where , per 1000 inhabitants, more arranger keyboards are being used, than here in Holland. Probably goes back to its religious/organ history. Having said that it is also true that the vast majority of those playing attain a level which Diki would find shocking, hell even I find it shocking. It is also true that this forum is basically a USA forum which a few stray members from Holland, Down Under and the oldies form the UK  It is also true that for too long a period of time this has been a forum hinged on the subject of "mine is better than yours ", but there has been vast improvement here. And like Diki says ( one of the few things I see eye to eye with him) these days it does not make all that much difference what motl or totl keyboard you play, they are all great. But I am totally in the dark as to what point Joost is trying to make here. He and Rico are the two Dutchies who basically post their recordings , of outstanding quality no doubt about it, so what ? I have have rarely seen any posting by them to deal with sorting out problems etc. that fellow SZ members encounter with their instrument, one of the main objects of these forums I would say. The observation regarding those who do post their recordings may be true from a highly professional/ skilled point of view but what is the point here , I cannot help wondering. Incidentally Joost if you care to visit the personal websites of folks like DonM, Donnny, etc.etc. you will find you are not the only one who has an outstanding level of performance, added to which it needs additional qualities to be an allround entertainer and not just a talented keyboard or piano player. Just as this forum is heading the right way I do not think we need post like this really. Let's focus on the great merits of the current and new generation of keyboards and try and help each other out by sound advice etc. There I have said it....... regards to ALL, John P.S. Saswick, your recordings have improved indeed imho. Keep up the good work.
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#372176 - 09/20/13 09:18 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: john smies]
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
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Like Don I am somewhat hesitant to enter in this discussion, not to say a little uncomfortable. I am in the dark as to why Joost , a fellow countryman of mine who lives at only 15 miles from where I reside, should have entered this post. I am all for calling a spade a spade but this feels wrong somehow, allow me to alleborate. Yes it is true that there is probably no country in the world where , per 1000 inhabitants, more arranger keyboards are being used, than here in Holland. Probably goes back to its religious/organ history. Having said that it is also true that the vast majority of those playing attain a level which Diki would find shocking, hell even I find it shocking. It is also true that this forum is basically a USA forum which a few stray members from Holland, Down Under and the oldies form the UK It is also true that for too long a period of time this has been a forum hinged on the subject of "mine is better than yours ", but there has been vast improvement here. And like Diki says ( one of the few things I see eye to eye with him) these days it does not make all that much difference what motl or totl keyboard you play, they are all great. But I am totally in the dark as to what point Joost is trying to make here. He and Rico are the two Dutchies who basically post their recordings , of outstanding quality no doubt about it, so what ? I have have rarely seen any posting by them to deal with sorting out problems etc. that fellow SZ members encounter with their instrument, one of the main objects of these forums I would say. The observation regarding those who do post their recordings may be true from a highly professional/ skilled point of view but what is the point here , I cannot help wondering. Incidentally Joost if you care to visit the personal websites of folks like DonM, Donnny, etc.etc. you will find you are not the only one who has an outstanding level of performance, added to which it needs additional qualities to be an allround entertainer and not just a talented keyboard or piano player. Just as this forum is heading the right way I do not think we need post like this really. Let's focus on the great merits of the current and new generation of keyboards and try and help each other out by sound advice etc. There I have said it....... regards to ALL, John P.S. Saswick, your recordings have improved indeed imho. Keep up the good work. John, You have not done bad to say your hesitant to wade in, nearly 1000 words.
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#372181 - 09/20/13 11:08 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Member
Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 388
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
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Since I became a member (a few years ago) Somehow I'm always asking myself how the audience is tolerating the level of the performer. Let me be clear, I do not question someone's skills
Joost Skill levels are always changing. Part of growth as an Artist or Musician is taking chances & leaving yourself vulnerable. It allows you to evaluate & re-tool who you are... When I "released" my first Cassette Album circa 1993, it wasn't very good..I cringe today when I hear the Alesis SR16 stock drum patterns, my "pitchy" spots & a level of playing well below semi-pro..But it was the best I could do at the time, it was where I was at. However it was a huge stepping stone to learn what works and doesn't, & to get me too where I am today. I helped me find my voice. If I never took a chance and kept believing I COULD when I COULDN'T, I'd never have evolved in my music. Here my first very basic video to a brand new song I "released" in the last month..I wrote it, I am singing it. After my hires and fires I work exclusively with one "Producer/Arranger". he knows my sound & style... As a VIDEO I know this lacks...Financially, It's "the best" I can do right now...Do I put myself "out there"? Or lament that my budget is zero? Or better yet, put nothing out because I am not there yet? Hopefully the audience can put up with me, as I am naive in so many aspects of how to do this music thing I absolutely love..... Here is my 1 and only YOUTUBE & the best I can do as of today http://youtu.be/oKKKQ3utjco
_________________________
Steve A http://www.stevealtonian.comKorg Pa4x 76...TASCAM DP24 & DP24 SD. Studio One 6 Professional with a FADER PORT 16. 1969 Yamaha FG-300 Yamaha Red Label Nippon Gakki. Breedlove American CME 25. Neumann TLM-49
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#372182 - 09/20/13 11:10 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tony Hughes]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14282
Loc: NW Florida
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BTW Diki, sell what !, not in vogue anymore your stuff, unless you have been spending your hard earned cash on some tasty gear, the T5 is out anytime now, available in your area! play like Tostie then.
You've been gone a while, I guess, Tony. I am now the proud owner of a BK-9. It is taking me some time to get used to not having a touch screen (I am waiting until next month when there are rumors of new iPads coming out), and my work this year has primarily been live band, but I am more and more impressed with my BK-9, and having the Chord Sequencer back in Roland's feature set has made me one happy camper! And while I admire Tostie's arranger stylings, I'm afraid musically we couldn't be much further apart. What he does is nice to listen to, but I doubt you'll ever find me playing in that style, with that kind of sound. All I have ever wanted is for my arranger to substitute for a GREAT kick-ass live band. Tyros's are very good at many things, but that isn't one of them! Paying nearly three times as much for an arranger that can't convince me I'm playing with a real drummer is not in my future!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#372183 - 09/20/13 12:35 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Not a lot of arranger players in my area...only three that are at an advanced level and are out gigging, primarily with a Tyros or high end PSR. I've been lucky, having the best of both worlds, I suppose, as I play arranger professionally and also play keyboards in a group setting...right now I am on a self imposed sabbatical until March of next year. In the meantime I still jam with some buds, and, of course, play every day on my Tyros4 doing up instrumentals in a style that sort of makes them my own. I like to keep my chops up in both areas.
Bottom line, at least for me, is that arrangers are just "tools of the trade"...I feel they are the same as any other electronic instrument or keyboard, and, for the most part, it really depends on the skill and creativity of the player to make the most of it. Joost and Rico are just two examples of exploiting the instruments fully, but each in his own way.
To me my arranger is both a "live" performance, and a recording instrument (the Tyros4/S950 are basically self contained studios, as are the Korg PA arrangers)...I use styles (personalized by me) when I play/record, and I don't use them to color my songs, rather I create songs by using styles... they're a crucial part of what I do ... I don't consider styles a crutch ... they're part of the art.
When I play in a band situation, I can often use ideas for comping that I picked up while listening to how the parts in the styles were played.
When Cassp started up the E-Jam on SZ a few years ago, we all got a fair idea of how many of the other members used their arrangers...I was very impressed with the fine work that was posted, both by vocalist/arranger users, and those who played strictly instrumentals. It was amazing to see/hear how those with limited keyboard skills managed to make up for it with clever arrangements or brilliant vocals, and not once did I feel there was any lack of talent or anything less than excellence and professionalism in their presentation.
The level of a "performance" is a sum of many parts, not just flashy keyboard licks or great vocal chops. It's a "package", and it's those who can create an attractive assemblage using their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses (or using them to their advantage) that maintain a high level.
Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#372185 - 09/20/13 03:05 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: ianmcnll]
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7305
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
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This place reminds me of Carl's Music Center in Lexington. It's now closed after my best friend Carl died and his kids completely screwed the place up.
On Saturdays, lots of people would gather there. One group consisted of all working musicians...guys and gals with full time playing jobs.
Then there were the "hangers on" or "wanabees"..people who wanted to play professionally, were looking for work and mostly attended jam sessions.
After that, the "week-end warriors"..folks with little groups who played wherever and whenever they could find a small gig.
Then, there were the home hobbyists, retired players and beginners.
This was a really diverse group, with, as you would surmise, a vastly different array of skills in the areas of musicianship and entertainment.
Same here. I am interested in the postings of any/all members, because it gives me a window into the personality and abilities of the member(s).
For me, it;'s a "slippery slope". It's been mentioned here before (gingerly) that some of the professed pro players are absolutely terrible. That's OK (and, right, in some cases). What's not OK is over inflated opinions and responses which are efforts to place themselves in a position, reputation-wise that they cannot sustain with their performances.
Then, there is the "defend arrangers/knock arrangers" dichotomy....the "entertainer vs. musician" discussions.
Look, let's just enjoy each post for what it is. Let's not get bent out of shape when the "my vs. your" arranger discussion raises its ugly head.
This is an "equal opportunity" form, and it would be way smaller and really boring if it were only visited by excellent working arranger performers.
Look at what we have...a world-wide group of musicians with a wide variety of skills, backgrounds and opinions.
Let's all enjoy the posts, give honest opinions, and take the occasional criticism as the honest opinion of an international friend who's working in the same fabulous arena (music) as you are.
Warts and all, I'm really glad to be here.
And, I'm glad all of you (or at least the great majority LOL)
are too!
Russ
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#372186 - 09/20/13 10:25 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
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Russ, You raise some very interesting points in your post, I knew from the very start that Tostie had opened a real can of worms, never mind, nothing like having a good blow of our noses. As you rightly say "This was a really diverse group, with, as you would surmise, a vastly different array of skills in the areas of musicianship and entertainment." You know yourself there are some people who get up and sing or perform on USA Got Talent and how they were ever let get up there is beyond belief, I think its the ratings. I think every word you said in your post is probably true Russ, you have had time to think about what you wrote. It's a great pity we don't talk about who's got the best or biggest car and how our gear just slips into the back of the car so easily getting to gigs, hells I for one in the UK would be embarrassed, I watched a bit of USA news video this week and every vehicle that went passed, you could get my focus inside. Comparing keyboards appears to get the blood racing through the veins and there will never be a perfect KB (Doh! did I really say that) In closing what I will says is this, you can criticize all you want about another AKB you don't have, but you cannot make a proper judgement until you take it home and play it for some length of time, in a shop won't do. I owned a G70, Audya and a T4, still got the latter, I nearly bought a MS, how do I know I might still have the MS best thing since sliced bread or just can't unload it. Tostie, I don't know what the original intent of the post was but here in the UK we do have sparrows that shit and fly away, perhaps you should come back into the loop and enlighten us, at least comment on the case for the prosecution or defence so far, I will never question your ability to play a T4, but this post I am not certain were it was intended to go, it's certainly got a few people up tight. BTW Tostie, I wouldn't tell members here that in your day job you are a Banker.  perhaps come back some friendly investment advice would wipe the slate clean, not that we would trust you 
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#372187 - 09/20/13 10:59 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tony Hughes]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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It's a great pity we don't talk about who's got the best or biggest car and how our gear just slips into the back of the car so easily getting to gigs, hells I for one in the UK would be embarrassed, I watched a bit of USA news video this week and every vehicle that went passed, you could get my focus inside.
Actually Tony, you may have something there...perhaps we could discuss what kind of vehicle we use for moving our gear, and why we have chosen such a particular model or type? I don't think we have ever bandied about such a topic, at least in recent times, and it would be interesting to hear how each of us has handled a common issue. Perhaps someone could start a topic relating to such a subject if they feel it's pertinent enough for discussion? Ian ('02 Honda Accord owner) 
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#372191 - 09/21/13 02:58 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5393
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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Each country has different cultures, and each person has an individual opinion, therefore while one section may think something is brilliant, others would class it as rubbish, therefore please bear in mind that it is only Toasties opinion and not a fact that has been posted, thus there is absolutely no reason for anybody to get upset, or to feel belittled.
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#372199 - 09/21/13 11:22 AM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: DonM]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Attachments
Edited by Dnj (09/21/13 11:24 AM)
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#372204 - 09/21/13 01:20 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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In many cases, you are right Diki, but there are a few of us who aren't in a big rush to set up/break down. My biggest concerns were generally where I was to set up and a having a good speaker placement in relation to the listeners. I rarely gigged more than once a day, and if that did happen, I made sure I didn't book myself into a situation that required an insane dash from one gig to the other.
My feeling is that life is meant to be sipped...not gulped!
Of course, having lighter (and more compact) gear is always nice, as long as there is no trade off in sound.
However, I still enjoy reading about the ways some of our busier SZ'ers manage to come up with to reduce set-up/break-down time...some are very clever indeed.
Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#372205 - 09/21/13 01:53 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: ianmcnll]
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Senior Member
Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 2071
Loc: Fruita, Colorado, USA
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Not a lot of arranger players in my area...only three that are at an advanced level and are out gigging, primarily with a Tyros or high end PSR. I've been lucky, having the best of both worlds, I suppose, as I play arranger professionally and also play keyboards in a group setting...right now I am on a self imposed sabbatical until March of next year. In the meantime I still jam with some buds, and, of course, play every day on my Tyros4 doing up instrumentals in a style that sort of makes them my own. I like to keep my chops up in both areas.
Bottom line, at least for me, is that arrangers are just "tools of the trade"...I feel they are the same as any other electronic instrument or keyboard, and, for the most part, it really depends on the skill and creativity of the player to make the most of it. Joost and Rico are just two examples of exploiting the instruments fully, but each in his own way.
To me my arranger is both a "live" performance, and a recording instrument (the Tyros4/S950 are basically self contained studios, as are the Korg PA arrangers)...I use styles (personalized by me) when I play/record, and I don't use them to color my songs, rather I create songs by using styles... they're a crucial part of what I do ... I don't consider styles a crutch ... they're part of the art.
When I play in a band situation, I can often use ideas for comping that I picked up while listening to how the parts in the styles were played.
When Cassp started up the E-Jam on SZ a few years ago, we all got a fair idea of how many of the other members used their arrangers...I was very impressed with the fine work that was posted, both by vocalist/arranger users, and those who played strictly instrumentals. It was amazing to see/hear how those with limited keyboard skills managed to make up for it with clever arrangements or brilliant vocals, and not once did I feel there was any lack of talent or anything less than excellence and professionalism in their presentation.
The level of a "performance" is a sum of many parts, not just flashy keyboard licks or great vocal chops. It's a "package", and it's those who can create an attractive assemblage using their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses (or using them to their advantage) that maintain a high level.
Ian
Ian, I've been here since around 2000-2001 I think, and I remember a very few exceptional intelligent comments, but you win the prize. I just want to say along with how you grasp things from the styles to help maybe improve you performances, I've said before that I could improvise to make people look up and listen back in the late fifties with one of the best young bands in New Orleans at that time doing the Professor Long Hair, Fats, Little Richard, Ray Charles' "Fathead" solos and tunes of the day. Our band won two "Battle Of The Bands" that were very prevalent at the time. I've always had a good ear. I played all the old Lee Allen, Herbert Hardesty, Sam Butera, Fathead and Boots Randolph licks I could grasp. I even spent some time getting Yakety Sax to where I did it almost note for note as soon as I heard about it.I was 16 and playing for about 2 years. I just luckily ran into a younger teenager named Ronnie (Barrose) Barron to join our band. He was an exceptional young 15 year old at the time and went on to join up with Dr. John and also Paul Butterfield. What I'm trying to say is that all of the things that I learned from that era was great. However, I want to say that when I started back playing and ran across BIAB, and discovered the solo feature, and started putting in all of the intricate variations of chords for the many different chord passages that can be added to the Jazz blues genre, and also the difficult standard tunes that I enjoy, my improvisation really took off. I really really recommend to any serious improviser no matter what level your at, BIAB will teach you licks that if you listen to closely that you would never dream of, if you used it daily. I just wanted to give some back ground of myself so that no one would think I just fell off of the banana truck and was impressed with BIAB. Like you said Ian about how you improved you're playing by paying attention to the styles on your arranger, BIAB is a tool for serious wanna be improvisers. Again, your comment hit the nail on the head.
_________________________
I'm not prejudiced, I hate everybody!! Ha ha! My Sister-In-Law had this tee shirt. She was a riot!!!
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#372208 - 09/21/13 02:46 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Thank you for the kind words, Boo. I've got a pretty good ear considering I started at 4 yrs with classical piano, which I remained with for roughly 10 years or so. It basically taught me how to read like a sonofagun, although I don't think it really taught me how to "play", if you get my meaning. Another 10 years with Yamaha Electone Organ course, and also in the trenches with a bunch of guys, who were far more musically experienced than me, helped me work on my ear and intuitive skills. A good guitar pickin' buddy of mine has Band-In-The Box, one of the later versions, I believe, and he's always hooting about it and mentioned most of the things you said. He's a very strong Country player, but also loves other music (Larry Carlton is one of his favorites) and he tells me has learned a lot from BIAB. We meet once or twice a week to jam, so I will check out BIAB and perhaps pick up a copy. Another guy I listened to, who still inspires my comping is Eumir Deodato, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_ivvEDV5_0 who has a cool way with the electric piano...a lot of subtle changes in his patterns keep my ear interested. One of my favorites, and first heard, tunes was his version of Moonlight Serenade: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-xs8DesY0Q and at the time I was playing in a Funk Band and we ended up doing a fair copy of his tune. The guys in the band always kept challenging me, and that helped me grow, and I owe them a big debt of gratitude. They weren't afraid of incorporating synthesizers in the band along with the tradional Rhodes and Hammond and we were pretty successful for well over a decade. Thanks again for your nice comments...they mean a lot coming from someone with your experience. Ian Attached is a picture of the group, back in the late 70's...I'm the hippie on the far left.  
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#372211 - 09/21/13 03:38 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: brickboo]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Ian, the guy in the door reminds me of Mac Rebennack. He was the drummer, Ron Joseph, and a very good one at that...he's since passed away, about 5 years ago. Worked as a hack driver to make ends meet when the gigging was slow. Great guy, and very supportive...his son plays drums and has a lot of his old man's talent. The guy standing next to me was our guitarist, Bo Innes, who had previously played cello in the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, and was a very innovative player. He was also a fine trombonist and also played French Horn. He wrote out a lot of charts so I could play proper horn parts on the synth, and in conjunction with the real horns, it sounded quite a bit like a brass orchestra...we did several tunes by Chicago, such as 25 or 6 to 4, and Saturday In The Park, so we had a very broad repertoire when needed. Bo ended up in Hollywood doing some acting...could be still there. His uncle was the comedian and actor, Godfrey Cambridge. Again, I was very fortunate to work with those guys. Boo, I love Dr. John...exceptional piano player! Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#372213 - 09/21/13 04:16 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Member
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 892
Loc: Baltimore, MD USA
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Ok, I have to jump in here. Good Joey told me not to, but bad Joey won out. As far as level of performance goes, I just keep waiting for the lessons to come in the mail each week. After I get my PHD in music, maybe I'll try to play a local beer joint, or, better yet, do some young weddings. I'm sure If I asked one of the Peabody piano professors what he thought about the Booty Call, I would be not so politely escorted off campus. But I'll keep striving and maybe one day I'll get to do a 5 hour band job for $100.00 and all the beer I can drink. Joe 
_________________________
PSR S950, PSR S900, Roland RD 700, Yamaha C3 6'Grand, Sennheiser E 935 mic, several recording mics including a Neuman U 87, Bose L1 Compact, Roland VS 2480 24 Track Recorder Joe Ayala
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#372216 - 09/21/13 05:16 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Nigel]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Ian, the guy in the door reminds me of Mac Rebennack. And it looks like you had Jack Black on the right .... But I guess you didn't play any Tenacious D back then. Nope, no Tenacious D back then, Nigel..ha ha! John "Hubba" Parris was his name...great vocalist and also played congas, cabasa, and rhythm guitar...the guy sitting down with the 'shades on was the other lead vocalist, who also played guitar and harmonica...in fact, we all sang. Those guys were like family to me, Nigel, and we still have remained close friends after all these years. Ian BTW Nigel, that's the first time I saw a guitar Leslie being used was with this particular band, as Bo had one in his bag of tricks...perhaps you might know the particular model...it had a black Tolex cover and wasn't very big, about half the size of one of my Leslie 147RV's. I think it just had one speaker.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#372218 - 09/21/13 06:21 PM
Re: Level of performers
[Re: Tostie]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Boo,
I'll dig around and see if I can find those old charts, but since moving a year ago, they are probably still packed in with stuff I haven't found a place for yet.
It's a very difficult tune on the arranger, but it could be done multi-tracking, if someone wanted to spend the time.
"What Goes Up Must Come Down" is a line from a song called "Spinning Wheel" (which we also played) written by David Clayton-Thomas of the group Blood Sweat and Tears.
"You Made Me So Very Happy" was also recorded by Blood Sweat and Tears; a lot of Motown acts covered it as well. Different writer on that one, I think. I'm pretty sure we didn't play it.
There was some great music in the late 60's, Boo, and, no, I'm not much of a fan of Rap music. Jazz, Pop, Country, R&B are some of my favorites. Two of my favorite writers were Burt Bacharach, and believe it or not, Barry Manilow.
Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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