Seems like a long while that anything new has come to market or any rumors or talk of new KB products regarding Arrangers KBs. have they over saturated the market with too many in the last 3 years as there's not much left to add.
Or Are manufacturers doing a whole NEW REVAMPing design and going in another direction when it comes to the traditional Arranger keyboard units as we know them to accommodate the latest technology? And to satisfy the younger market in some way if at all. As the older hom,e organ players fade away which is the heart of the market what will be the next wave of the dying breed known in years past as the Arranger KB?

Well I don't know about you, but I plan to be around for a while longer. ;-)

I think there are still enough of us to keep things moving along in the arranger market and at the price they get for them now, they can do with less volume.

Since innovation left the building more then a decade ago, and arrangers have just become more of the same with slights improvements, they stopped attracting new players. They are build for old men and are slowly dieing..

Unless they add new features, that attract younger musicians...

If they create an arranger that combines Ketron audya styles, with Korgs Karma and Ableton lives interface ( or maschines) .... And allow the build in sounds to be expanded with VSTs... And still stay true to the high quallity and reliabillity standards of todays top arrangers, .... Add a huge touchscreen and dedicated knobs and sliders... Throw in a top of the line keybed ( choice of 61, 76 and 88 weighted) ... And add some more feautures that would pull in the workstation and computer musician crowd.... Only then arrangers will be saved.

I also think it's time for manufacturers to give the player total freedom to EDIT and Mix and Match style parts in anyway they like in an EASY TO DO FASHION as to create all kinds of music anyway a player wants using the Arranger KB. As Styles are the lifeblood and need to be easily edited to suit what ever musical purpose needed. Pretty much as it stands now it's very antiquated for today's music scene lets face it.
Most of today's music isn't created on an arranger KB...if they don't get with the program it will remain an old man wooden home organ alternative as it is now.

Personally I think the market is full of enough things. Live entertainment is evolving and actually playing an instrument is being pushed aside with the spotlight on vocalists. Its been said before, for most venues no one cares how the music is coming out as long as its good and the attention is all on the singers. Last Friday on the Today show they featured another flavor of the week new band. Behind the singer I noticed some classic Fender amps. Nothing plugged into them and the whole act was done to pre-recorded tracks. The drummer did actually hit some drums but I guess he couldn't fake that.
Milli Vinilli was ahead of their time.
If a situation calls for a live act as in Jazz or Classical then it needs to be totally live. Even if its just a piano player in a restaurant. Just play the piano, thats whats expected.
For the rare occasions that will allow some arranger playing I think there is enough variety out there to cover it. I'm really happy with my BK9. It does all I want or I think I will need. I think Roland realizes that too, how much do you need to justify the selling point. Would I like an Audya, sure, but would it justify the cost, no. For the hobbyist who wants the greatest, sure.
I don't think young musicians really know much about arranger as there are numerous keyboard that will just provide bcking tracks and recording so they are pulled toward those.

Another factor is that many people included the younger set have no idea even how to play keyboard let alone an arranger KB. And really why should they when there is so many other avenues to take to create music today besides learning how to play an instrument which takes years of dedication & determination. This new generation is 100% computerized vs the baby boomers who only have a 50%/50% computer upbringing midway in life & that is a big factor also.

Donny, your absolutly right. It's all about instant gratification and the digital age making it easy for everyone to be a star. Saw it when I tried teaching private piano lessons at a local studio. The kids thought just showing up for the 1/2 hour lesson was it. When I gave them a practice schedule they dropped out. Next door in the guitar room it was "Smoke on the Water" right off the bat.
Its I'm going to be a singer or rapper and be rich and famous.
When I did Piano tuning I saw a few dedicated kids who were playing for the love of playing and residual benefits it provided. Not withstanding it always seemed these were the kids who were also top of their class students because they (or their parents) realized the positive results of putting some work in.

Last week I sat in with the "Billy the Kid " band. 14 year old guitar wiz with his father on Bass and a drummer. Kid can play all the classic rock stuff and kept bugging his dad to get a keyboard player. I did Hammond and Piano and we had a ball. Dad tells me the kid is already bored and doesn't want to practice anymore. Sort of "How come I'm not famous yet" attitude. LOL ! To their credit the parents are on his a** with school so they understand the real world.
So all is not lost --yet

I think arrangers played with-out midi files are tough to work with for some genres & eras of music. As my repertoire begins to add more and more content from the 80's and 90's, it doesn't play to the unit's strengths, which are styles.

Don't get me wrong-I'm not abandoning arrangers anytime soon. No way...they are terrific for many, many useful kinds of musical performance.

As new wave became popular, the construction of a typical pop song was different than it had been prior. Instead of the band chunking along from chord to chord, there emerged the use of "lines" - melodic riffs, that would be built upon by other instruments. Sometimes there's a suitable workaround that sounds fine, sometimes there isn't. If you try and play "Take on Me" without the signature riff, its usually sucks. Stuff from Duran, Duran, the Police, the Talking heads, etc...doesn't seem to translate well.

Sometimes, as I've said, there are creative, well-played modified versions of tunes that work...but its cumbersome to get the arrangers to do it well.

I am moving closer and closer to adding a high end loop machine like a RC 300 Boss RC -300 to some of my performances.

That opens up a world of possibilities that are difficult to attain right now. I'm also thinking of adding an electric/acoustic guitar to the mix that would also be a game changer for me.

Its more expenses, more stuff to carry, and it wouldn't really be suitable for 100% of my shows---but I think in time, it would be. Its as much me trying to think ahead of the game-prepare myself so I stay relevant in the SW Ohio music scene.

Plus, the idea of developing a guitar/loop machine component to my act sounds like a helluva lot of fun.

I disagree that there are not a good number of excellent keyboard players out there. In both the commercial and religious fields I see lots of young talent emerging, and they're playing organ and piano along with their keyboards.

As for arrangers, they IMO are great for established music genres, but not for doing much with the newer music. Even Donny has to admit that he uses mp3 and smf to augment his arranger styles. I just bought a new keyboard; it plays .wav and mp3 files. All I have to do is transfer my smf to either type and go. As for the 15% of arranger styles I use, I can build a song using my arranger keyboard, record it as an audio file and play it on this new 73-key beast of keyboard.

As much as I agree that the simplicity of an all-in-one keyboard is the way to go, I must also admit being limited to arranger styles is not the wave of the future. We already have 'live drums,' why not live guitars, saxes, synths, etc...

I started this drummerless thing with a simple Roland drum machine and it worked fine for a long time. Then I switched to an i3 and thought that was going to be it. I'm now on my fifth Yamaha and have had several Rolands in between. I'm actually going back to a regular keyboard with a BK7m as a sideman and may even start using my PK5 pedals. Since most of my music is already prearranged one way or another, I rarely need an arranger keyboard.

That said, I'm still using my beautiful s950 for the foreseeable future...

Arrangers have always been easy play as they are designed for the home hobby player, and if they bought the styles (Loops) and sounds up to date, then with the correct marketing they could be accepted by the younger market. (Most older players would probably moan though as most don’t consider anything post 40s to be real music)
One thing is certain though, there is no substitute for practice and talent as seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VCED5cVnxxY

Enjoy

Bill

Again I ask what direction will the Arranger KB manufacturers go in the near future to compensate for what we are talking about regarding the "NEW YOUNGER MUSICAL GENERATION"?

If it continues the way its going it's not going to endure longevity as in the past. These small increment upgrades model release after model release to pick away at peoples pocketbooks is frustrating and pretty soon players will just have had enough & will want some MAJOR CHANGES!

I personally saw it all coming as a Pro player and made the necessary changes I needeed to continue to perform mixing it ALL Up one way or another with Styles, Live playing, Backing tracks, Mp3's, DJ'ing, etc, ....they are all in my Tool Box ready to use combined with great Vocals and Backup Harmonies. Jump on board the new generation train people, adapt and make changes now, or your gonna miss the ride very soon & be left at the station.

Every time Donny fires up this topic, he gets the same response from mostly the same individuals. This is not the first time this type of post has appeared here on the Synthzone.

What I find amazing is that he is always talking about playing for the "younger crowds", when in reality, when you look at the photos and videos he posts, everyone seems to be older than me - and I'm really an old fart!

Now, I talked with my son about this and he put it in perspective. His old band gets together once or twice a year, plays one of the more popular Baltimore club venues, draw crowds of 400 to 500 people in their late 30s to late 40s, and his band rocks the place for three hours without taking more than 10-minutes break each hour. It's a high energy heavy-metal rock band and all of these individuals are extremely talented musicians.

At the clubs where he performs, there's a cover charge, usually $8 to $10 per person, and that's what the club owner uses to pay the band. The band never gets the entire amount, but usually about $400 to $500 for the night - big deal! That works out to about $100 to $125 per band member for three hectic, high level hours, dealing with druggies and drunks, and hoping to get out of Baltimore alive and well. That's one of the reasons he only does this once a year. Donny, you are not going to do this kind of stuff, regardless of what new gear you purchase.

Most of us, at least on this particular forum, are not performers or entertainers. Most are home players and really have no reservations about the limitations of their arranger keyboards. So lets take a good look at the future. This should be fairly easy. Our audiences, primarily, are our age, or up to a decade older. They want to hear and dance to the music they enjoyed when they were 15 to 35 years of age, which is what we play best with our arranger keyboards. I'm playing primarily for folks that are my age, which will be 74 in two months, and individuals ranging to 80 years of age. They tend to enjoy the same music I enjoyed when I was young. Donny is just over a decade younger than myself, so if he comes up a decade with his music selection, he will have all the work he can handle, and at wages far superior to those currently paid in the clubs - even the high end clubs. And, those high-end clubs rarely hire OMB entertainers - they tend to hire full bands, thus translating to lower pay. Hell, everyone knows that - we've all been there and done that. We've all come home with barely enough money to cover the travel expenses to and from the job - is that REALLY what you want to do?

Now, if there were a lot of young people out there clamoring for bands to play for them, don't you think there were be a deluge of clubs around catering exclusively to those individuals? We don't have them in my neck of the woods. What we do have is places that cater to the folks that have money to spend on food and entertainment - the kind of food and entertainment they enjoy. Guess what? That's the same folks that our current arranger keyboards seem to be best suited for.

Now, I only play two restaurant jobs, both of which I do for a friend who is having worse health problems than myself. I pack the house every night I perform, and the owner(s) have tried all the younger crowd groups in hopes of increasing business by attracting the younger set. They have told me that the only thing the younger, rock bands did was cause them more trouble, headaches and expenses than they could have ever anticipated. Now, the older crowds don't spend loads of money on booze, which is a big money maker for the clubs, but they will buy the more expensive meals and stay around the entire time there is music playing. Consequently, the owners claim their bottom line is far better with the older folks and they never cause problems.

Now, I don't know a damned thing about Central New Jersey's club business, but other than the Jersey Shore, I don't think it's any different than any other part of the U.S.. Maybe Donny knows something that will make him a small fortune in the entertainment biz. Maybe he should sell me his PSR-S950 to me for half what he paid for it - I'll make good use of it. Maybe Donny will become a big-buck DJ or KJ and never talk to us again. You know, the ones I keep hearing about with the light shows, a truck load of big speakers, fireworks, etc... For some strange reason, we don't seem to have those in my part of the world. They must all be working north of the Mason/Dixon Line.

Personally, I sincerely believe arranger keyboards will be around longer than we will, and I for one, love all the features I have on my S-950. It does more than I could ever have dreamed and then some.

Bill, I started out playing bars and clubs with a 6-string guitar, a pawn shop amp and mic, and later on, a Roland drum machine. Then I switched to a Yamaha 12-string guitar, mainly because of the fuller sound it provided. It was an incredible guitar. Then I ran across a duo, Norm & Carlos. Norm played the PSR-500 and Carlos played a six-string electric guitar. They really sounded great, and both of them were outstanding singers and entertainers. They made $150 for a 4-hour job. Yep, $75 each and they had to pay all their expenses out of that. They were booked solid, performed every Friday, Saturday and Sunday, then went to work Monday through Friday at their day jobs so they could make enough money to support their families.

I see Norm once in a while - he and I play the same NH circuit north of Baltimore. Norm said he really loved playing the clubs, but he never made enough money to support his family. Now that he works the NH and senior center circuits, he can support them and has money to spare.

So, maybe Donny has a lot of younger venues in his part of the world, places where he can haul in much more money as he does on the NH circuit and work the same number of hours. I've never encountered those venues, personally, so I guess I'll have to continue along the same OLD track that I have traveled for all these years, playing for those OLD FOLKS.

Sorry about the rant guys and gals, but I'm old and cantankerous so please forgive me for not accepting the younger generation stuff as gospel - it just doesn't fly!

Gary

Gary stop harping on being old its depressing 74 today aint nuttin!....enjoy life buddy you only get one.

In my miniscule part of the world, I can usually make $100 for a one hour NH gig, make $150 as a OMB doing three sets, or make anywhere from $75 - 200 playing with a trio/quartet for four sets doing one nighters. You do the math. I am happier, healthier and more content playing my retirement/NH jobs. They usually take place in the afternoon and are near home.

As for arrangers, I confess I have never become proficient in using all of those styles. Once I moved from those rickety drum machines on the home organs to playing out with an arranger, I've found it easier to use midi files. How many times do you actually play a song differently? If you hardly change your style and length of the song, why not record it as a SMF or mp3 and then use any frickin' keyboard you want.

The up and coming OMBs may use a standard arranger, but they'll also have a huge armory of other audio choices to help them make music and entertain. If these young folks attack the arrangers as they do other electronica, they may expose sonic possibilities within our arrangers that we never knew existed.

Actually I hope they do. It would open another world of possibilities.

all i want is an updated Audya with modern specs, 16gb ram, 512GB SSD, new OS,
that will allow us to use VST's, and easily edit our styles, add/use our own audio guitars
all this while keeping the kick @ss Audya real deal sound

bring it !!!

I dont think you will see that anytime soon but you can dream

I have heard they are working on it...... Really they are..

They know they need so ething huge to beat Their own audya, and since they dont make a lot of money by selling their own new sounds and styles, they will not cut their profit by allowing 3rd party vsts or user created styles .....

On top of that they are also adding physical moddeling voices based on the former Gem drake engine, and something comparable to Yamahas ensemble voices and organ section...

I did my Hot Dog Cart thingy from around 9 til 2 AM at the biggest club in Mesa County. Dig this, in New Orleans it's always been 18 for boos. Here it is 21, but this club had a stamp for those under 21. They were in one side, and the 21 and older to 50's maybe some 60's on the other side of the club, but they shared the dance floor. Packed 400 to 500 people a night on weekends. This place was huge.

I had to go in to check it out for 10 minutes, which was 9 minutes and 50 seconds too long for me. The volume was really ridiculous and of course it was a DJ. God I hate DJ's! They don't know a Zb from a Q# for the most part. Oh there might be 2 exceptions.

People here don't know what a OMB is in Clubs, only the Farmer's Market and a night thingy gig from time to time in a City Park.

I did one club gig with my sax a year or two back and couldn't hear myself through the sound system. It was miserable. I can't stand it. In my day the bands who played loud were the guys who really couldn't play well. They used wrong chords and tried to cover it up with volume. I've always considered it pathetic.

The club closed last year after a gunfight and death outside. You should have seen this place poppin. I mean Blacks, Mexicans, Whites, Orientals you name it. We have a pretty large university here for such a small town. We have exchange students from every country on earth probably. What I mean is it's amazing with all of the people in the world who hate other people because of their race or religion, I'm surprised there was only one killing in the place with all of the different cultures and the boos etc. There were fights often. This club had 10 or more 250 to 300 lb bouncers. I gave them all free Hot Dogs. No one was going to mess with me. Ha ha.

Anyway if they closed all the clubs in America up it wouldn't bother me a bit, as long as they leave Taco Bell, McDucks, Wendy's and Burger King open, (that's all I can barely afford.)

This is Gary's damn fault. He got me going on the loud music and DJ's. Man I hate DJ's.

The reason we went to an arranger as part of our gig, is that our crowds like the styles..and most are over 60.

That said, the last three mini concerts we went to, the groups used karoke backup and no one cared. Again the audience were seniors. I think in one of those karoke concerts, the tickets were $15 apiece and 250 folks showed up.

After that last Karoke concert, my wife asked me why we are even bothering to haul a keyboard...given the crowds we play for.

The other thing that I quite haven't figured out....

We went to an outdoor concert earlier this summer. The guy singing was good but all he had was a guitar and he entertained for two hours. Now, I'm an acoustic guitar player first and foremost but I was bored out of my mind after the first 15 minutes just listening to guitar. But the crowd there seemed to be contented?

Sometimes I think it's only the musicians themselves that appreciate what goes into good music. The audience, well, if there's a live body...that's good enough...

Entertainment and being a musician are two different things
Those karaoke backed up singers are obviously entertainers
While the guy playing guitar and singing was a musician..
Just ask yourself what you want to be....

In general, i prefer musicians that are entertainers on top of being musicians..

In general, I've made it on being an entertainer...wish I was a better musician.

Part of the problem(for me anyway)is this...

I feel better about entertaining when the music I put out is good...at least it sounds good to me.

Well in my opinion, I believe real musicians are a dying breed.

Instead of continuing to upgrade try to learning your instrument to a greater extent.
Where possible try getting to play even once a month with a few real musicians it dosent have to be for money.

Just my thoughts
on it.

Thats not entirely t'rue... Singer songwriters havent been so popular with the big audience in a very long time... There are still a lot of musicians out there, you only need to see that the tools are changing..

Interesting Boo. And BTW, most of you are right. People don't go ANYwhere for the music anymore, they go for the ILLUSION of 'partying', having a good time. That usually involves loud music (source be damned), many, many watered-down drinks, and the right 'optics' ('club' atmosphere). There are several notable exceptions, however (where people actually go to hear the music). One is the classical concert (in any of it's forms - Pipe Organ, Piano, Symphony Orchestra or any of it's scaled-down offshoots, etc.). The other is the predominantly-Black Jazz club. Although, like most other music venues, it is a dying breed, it may be one of the last places left to hear really good music played by really good musicians. These VERY demanding audiences will weed out the 'wannabe's' and 'not quite ready for prime time' players but, in their own unique way, will definitely acknowledge the exceptional player.....and believe me, they know the difference. Definitely not an ideal place to bring Arranger KB-type entertainment.

At these venues, you can be sure of several things:
1. Bad food.
2. Overpriced, watered-down drinks.
3. Supportive and respectful audience if you're good, but you won't get a pass if you're not.
4. A Cover charge.
5. Lousy pay if you're the musician and damn few tips from a jazz audience.
6. An impending club closure (few NEW jazz clubs make it past the first year).

All sad but true. The few that do make it tend to be things like micro-breweries and the like, that feature jazz exclusively.
Luckily, Atlanta has probably more than it's share of Jazz venues but it also has more than it's share of really good jazz musicians, so it's sort of a wash. There are a number of organized jazz listening groups that patronize and support these venues. Odd, I know, but Atlanta is a very strange city where you're either on the inside or you have no clue of what the music/club scene is REALLY like.

Interesting topic, though.

chas

Just to prove a point.....Who ever though Big bands of the 30's, 40-'s which were mainstream would ever be GONE?
All musical genres after that till today are slowly disappearing also only to be replaced by something else.
Years from now people will say ...
"Hey remember when people played instruments?" It's a sad fact of life.Things change,some faster then others. People of the the last 60+ years have seen many more changes and quickly too, music is just ione of those things,...Today its, Create your OWN little world of happiness and enjoy it throughout your life,...hang in there as it's gonna get even more wacky out there!

What is played (types of instruments/tone generators)changes...the art form and those who participate evolve with the form.

Literally every image on line and on network contains audio that a musician created. Obviously, so does broadcast radio.

We were on the job "knocking it out" before arrangers and a few of the youngest, most hardy will be here after they're gone.

It doesn't matter what you play (what instrument)....JUST PLAY!


R.

Hi Donnie:

I don't have the answer to your question... but DJ's (as Boo says) seem to be getting most of the action. I pretty well agree with Boo's lack of enthusiasm for most DJs but there are a few good ones. One thing is certain, I would be lost without my Yamaha 910. Arrangers are such an advantage for songwriters and the new styles and instrument tweaks Yamaha has provided are certainly better. I just placed a new ten song album with an outfit called Loudr. Not only do they sell albums direct from their site... they also provide them to iTunes, Pandora and other "retailers."

Thanks, Yamaha... keep up the good work.

Dave Rice

Some deejays are musicians that create their own music live on stage... they just use different tools...

Some Deejays are just entertainers, that recreate what others did.

And then there are those deejays that are nothing more then radio presentators in front of a live audience, that play MP3s after MP3... thats the oldfashioned Deejay

On reflection (Have Arranger KBs died out ?), I would question whether they were ever really 'alive'. I don't believe they ever caught on to the degree that the auto-accompaniment home organs did. Of course I don't know this for sure but I seem to remember that about a third of every middle class household had one. If they (arrangers) were meant as the successor for this market, you would have to conclude that this was a dismal failure. Young people won't buy them (any more than they'd buy a nice Conn or Lowry organ), music schools won't buy them (defeats the purpose of learning an instrument), 'Pros' won't use them (with the exception of OMB's) viewing them as too restrictive, Studios won't use them (for obvious reasons), and finally, Home players won't buy them (in large numbers), presumably because of the cost and the lack of the 'furniture' factor - let's face it, a Tyros 5 (with cables and crap hanging out all over the place) just doesn't cut it in the Living room or 'Parlor' and Five grand is too much to plop it in the rec room for the kids or grandkids to bang on.

Now bear in mind that I'm only speculating on the scene in America; Europe and Asia could be completely different. On THIS forum, it seems like everyone has an arranger kb, but in the 'real world', and especially on the live music scene, they are as rare as hen's teeth. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if up to 60-70% of arranger kb owners belonged to this forum. I'm guessing they make up less than 5% of all KB sales. So will they die out? Probably, except for a few boutique instruments. Limited sales volume will always keep the prices high, especially the TOTL models, plus, new ways of making music will leave arrangers in the dusk...in other words, they will simply have no role to play. I predict that all the things that they do well ie. sketch pad, demo arrangements, ect., will be taken over by some form of computer. I think you've already pretty much established that today's audiences don't really care where the music is coming from - especially if the vocals are good and the 'entertainment' quotient is high.

JMO, of course.

chas

Chas, unfortunately, a lot of what you posted has already taken place, especially when it comes to younger people. There's no instant gratification with any instrument, thus my friend's music teaching rooms (15 of them) at his store no longer have a waiting list. In some ways, I guess keyboards, like many things that require some degree of effort to learn, will eventually give way to things that take little or no effort to provide the same end means. And, yes, if the vocals are good to excellent, the audiences really don't care where the music comes from. Hell, everyone has been hoodwinked to believing that we, as OMB entertainers, are just doing karaoke and not really playing the arranger at all. This has always amazed me.

Cheers,

Gary

I feel that arranger manufacturers are struggling to come up with new and more groundbreaking features to generate more interest.

In my case, the Tyros4 will quite likely be my last arranger keyboard as it has everything to suit my needs. The Tyros5, in my opinion, is just a T4 with audio drum based styles and a few other newish features, (although the Ensemble feature is quite nice), and it wasn't worth the upgrade, at least to me.

If the interest in arrangers hasn't actually died out, I feel that it peaked somewhat a few years ago, and is on a decline of sorts.

All arrangers are hobby based instruments in my estimation, although some enterprising and creative performers managed to use them in professional ways.

I do know that the arranger provided me with a lot of work that I may not have got just using traditional keyboards.

Ian

hey what do you expect when the layman audience sees & hears one person sitting there and hears a Whole band playing it doesnt add up in the uneducated persons mind . Lets be honest all were doing is operating an automatic computerized music player or sorts and controlling parts just like a Dj would do which is mainstream now. The playing the keys part just doesn't register in peoples minds. When you see a band you know & see each player is doing something separate on stage. Nothing to be amazed about just accept it for what it is & create music in any way you desire.

I respectfully disagree, Donny, in that while I may be "operating an automatic computerized music player or sorts and controlling parts" , it is MY PLAYING that is doing that ... if I screw up, that computerized music player screws up as well ...
And even though FORBES list of "Top Earning Musicians" includes several DJs - at earnings of well over $50 million for the year - I will not include them as 'musicians' in my thinking ...
When I go out for musical entertainment, I look for 'live musicians', even if it is a OMB, over a DJ ...

I respect the fact that you and several others on this forum have had to incorporate DJing into your entertainment profile in order to keep up with current trends and continue to make a living in the music field, but I am just as happy that I am at a stage in MY life where doing that is not necessary ...

Amen!

Exactly Don but no one cares or do they know what your doing up on stage & why should they? It's only what they hear that matters. Operating computers is what we do in any way shape or form which still takes talent of which no one understands but the player. I think 30 years of arranger kb playing is not a bad record we had a good run so far... but all things come to an end and Arranger KB will soon face this in one way or another to make room for the next greatest form of musical creation. Denial wont change anything.....
just keep on doing what we do, what ever way we do, and enjoy it.

From as long as I have been a member of the zone ,the death of these keyboards has been prophesied. But there are very strong reasons why they are unlikely to die out just yet .

In fact workstations and performance keyboards are more likely to die out before arranger keyboards do because of the availability and integration of iPads and various apps .

The arranger keyboard market is dominated by folks who in general

1. are not technologically proficient.
2. Are incredibly loyal to brands
3. Like new innovations but not so widely different to what they already have
4. And have the desire and the money to upgrade their keyboard everysingle time a new addition comes out and lastly
5. routinely do so every single time a new addition comes out.

What is likely to happen is that the pure arranger market will become less diversified Meaning that the likes of Roland will probably disappear and we will be left with Yamaha korg and possibly ketron or even a new company coming into the market

I predicted a few years ago that arranger keyboards would morph into workstation crossbreeds. And certainly we have seen this in the likes of the motif and the Fantom the kurzweil pc3 etc .

Arrangers will update but not die for sometime to come .

Looking at the latest uploads by Jim and Rico, I seem to see someone actually playing rather than "operating a computer"...these guys, like many of us here, are "players" and certainly not DJ or Karaoke style players/singers.

All it takes is one or two to give the rest a bad name.

The arranger keyboard, in the right hands, is still a wonderfully expressive, and personal instrument.

Ian

Exactly the same was said about the electronic organ market, (The Arranger keyboard came from the easy play features of the electronic organ) however they have now moved into a niche market with a limited number of manufactures, (they certainly haven’t died though) and I expect the Arranger keyboard to follow in their footsteps. (They won’t die they will just become niche as a new type of instrument takes over)
I seriously doubt if Workstations and Arrangers will merge either as they are designed for two completely different types of market. (Home & Pro)
Bill

Its not only arrangers.... Its also workstations and synthesizers..

In a few years we will see fully software solutions like Varranger...

All you need by then is a masterkeyboard controller... A PC.....And a huge touchscreen.. To get the best quallity..

Arrangers will fall back to their beginning days as childrens toys..

Yes, arranger keyboards did have rather humble beginnings...I remember seeing the early Casio and Yamaha instruments with all of 10 rhythms and just as many sounds. However, no matter how you look at it, the "FUN" factor was very high, and the instruments really took off in a monstrous growth spurt.

For me, I'm glad to have been able to follow (and be relatively deeply involved in) their journey to the awesome keyboards they are today, and I'm also glad to be using a predominately hardware based instrument with lots of physical buttons and sliders and knobs and no touch screen.

It still makes me smile when I play it.

One thing arrangers have that workstations do not...immediacy.

Ian

The thing is home organs were monstrously expensive back in the day and you needed a room dedicated for that one instrument it was so huge and heavy. Home organs are still available today and have not changed in terms of their looks and functions significantly since back in the day. Whereas arranger keyboards most certainly have. And are much more affordable and takes much less room .

It is true that there is a market for a purely software based instrument with as I've said before, potentially just an iPad some apps and a controller keyboard. How ever the appeal of an arranger keyboard has always been its flexibility Immediacy and the fact that it has designated hardware functions that makes it instantly playable straight out of the box. No latency , software conflicts etc.

The home organ evolved Into the workstation arranger and the workstation arranger is evolving into a highly integrated music production system able to play styles via midi , audio files and record external instruments and able to slot into an external daw where required .

The technology of arranger keyboards are already incorporated into most of today's hi end workstations but a dumbed down version . Time will tell where it goes from there but we are a long way off from the death of arrangers . That's for sure .

It's quite obvious what's happening technologically for all of us. The increase in change will happen faster and faster.
An Arranger KB will be like using a flip phone instead of a smart phone soon. New ways to create music is an exciting thing to look forward to...I hope I'm around to see some of it.

Ian common you are still controlling an "automatic driven computerized" style machine...no way around that,......
right hand playing is a different story,....but the computer is operating around the repetitive chord structure, ...but you knew that right? Now if you record ALL the parts track by track into a sequence & play on top of that and sing that is playing the keyboard my friend.

I really enjoy my arranger keyboard, Donny...I also work hard to individualize my performance, both in the way I create my own styles, and in the way I arrange my music (chord structure etc.).

Playing over a midi file is boring in my opinion...way too repetitive for my liking...I like being able to re-arrange on the fly which is why I prefer to use style backing instead of the whole she-bang being previously recorded (usually by someone else).

But, that's the beauty and versatility of the instrument...you can play either way.

I just like my way better, that's all.

Ian

Boring? I can't agree, a repetitive style yes thats boring for me,...many players don't have the talent to record songs track by track to sequence. Both ways have their strengths,.......but a style many times is too repetitive vs recording bass lines, horn stabs, breaks, fills, etc, the way the player wants it to sound in a song and they are both ok to a point,...... That's why I mix it up and utilize playing styles, smf, mp3, etc, and singing using ALL the tools offered to me to make music for a living...if your gonna sit home in your living room what does it matter then someones personal musical satisfaction right?.

enjoy what ever you play

If you are using boring styles, then you aren't using the style creator feature on your instrument to its full potential.

I can also use the arranger's sequencer to multi-track when recording, and I can also do multi-tracking with the addition of a style.

That's what makes an arranger more versatile to me than a workstation...it's also this same immediacy that lets you get down an idea before you lose it if you are into song writing or doing demo tunes.

But again, the way I use an arranger only has to suit ME, not anyone else.

If you need to use all those tools to do a performance, that's fine...we obviously operate differently Donny. All I need is the arranger itself, whether I'm playing for my own enjoyment, doing studio work or taking the occasional gig. In all cases, I'm playing the instrument.

That's why I said I was so happy with my Tyros4...its the Swiss army knife of keyboards in my opinion.

Ian

Hey guy I am back in after a break I have been working a lot very busy play here in So Cal.

I like this topic I can play a arrang as good as anybody out there I got good skills in that area but since I have been using Midi files in my shows my business has jumped off the map I can now add a different dimension to my shows. Ie guitar playing. More piano and fuller sound. It is much better to the audience to get a bigger production. As large as I want or as small as I want to present . Don't get me wrong there is still a place for arrang playing but 95% of what I do is with files and jump point so I can keep the dance going it also allows me to go out and just sing as well. That is one of my best skills. So I think arrang are still good but the use of midi files are best for me. I just wish there where more avail in yamahamusicsoft site. They have been making a bunch of un usable one of late I am hoping the do more in the area I am used too . Good to be back in the fold Ron Johnson

I'm more of a keyboard player than entertainer/singer/showman so I guess that's why I like the flexibility and the personalisation that using styles brings to my performance.

I can fully understand someone using midi files...they just aren't suited for my way of playing.

I like sitting down at the instrument, picking one of my own styles, and just playing a tune...no fuss, no muss, and it's far more spontaneous than using a midi file...in my opinion, of course.

Again, that's one of the arranger keyboard's major strengths...immediacy.

Good to see you back posting, Ron.

Ian

I like Ian , really enjoy remixing songs and only an arranger is the best tool to experiment and trial different styles and chord professions for songs . And aGain the style creator can allow you to generate very interesting bass lines depending on the chords you are playing .

I just love my arranger !

This is why everyone that composes music should have an arranger.... its so easy to try out new things on the fly....

What some people might fail to recognize, is that these so called "easy play" features (that make amateur or less skillful players allegedly sound wonderful) on an arranger offer the advanced player even more scope than what could be found on a workstation or organ based instrument.

One can also plug bass pedals in an arranger and forgo some, or all, of the auto features, or mix in whatever amount the player desires. It's easy, as Jimlaing has showed us, to attach another keyboard to give further potential during live, or recorded, play.

Like any other musical instrument (organ, piano, guitar), the potential of the arranger keyboard is only limited by the talent or creativity of the player...witness advanced musicians like Peter Baartmann, Marty Harris, or our own Telmo, Tostie, Jim and Rico and how they exploit so called "easy play" features to their advantage.

There are lots of mediocre piano and organ players for every advanced player, and it's no different when it applies to arranger keyboards. For every critic who thinks a player using auto play features is somehow "cheating", there are many excellent players (as mentioned above) who creatively apply such attributes to make incredibly listenable music.

As I said earlier, I feel that arranger manufacturers are burning the midnight oil trying to come up with new features to make the arranger more playable to the beginner, and more exploitable to the advanced player.

Time will tell what's on the way, but it sure will be interesting to see what comes along.

Ian

You can do pretty much anything you want with any keyboard, however it is easier if you use a keyboard that is designed for the job in hand, hence the different groups.

Arrangers are designed for the home player and thus the manufacture has set everything up to make this simple.

Workstations are designed for production and live band play, which means having everything setup (As in an arranger) is a hindrance not an asset.

Combining the 2 would be great, but no pro musician is going to pay arranger prices for stuff they will hardly ever use, and home players usually complain at why they should pay for all the in depth editing and production (Workstation) software that they don’t understand.

This is the reason manufactures produce 2 separate lines, as otherwise they would lose sales all round.

Adding a pedalboard to an arranger has been common in Europe for years, as it gets rid of the boring & repetitive bass lines that arranges produce, (A lot of manufactures support team produce USB sticks that users can purchase to set up the arranger for a pedalboard with no setup required) over the last couple or 3 years adding a second keyboard has also started to become common. (They are bought mainly by those who used to buy organs but have now moved over to arrangers, but after a time finds the flexibility of the arranger to be too limited compared to organ, but still want all the arranger features)

Bill

...But here's the thing. With all the features and potential attributed to the Arranger, why hasn't it taken the keyboard world by storm. Even after at least ten years of modern, capable arranger keyboards, they still haven't been able to make any kind of meaningful inroads into overall electronic keyboard sales. According to it's small but devoted following, anything any other keyboard can do, Arrangers can do as well or better, and yet.......

Apparently Donny really enjoys being the bearer of bad news and sad tidings, but in this instance he's probably correct in predicting the gradual downslide and eventual demise of the arranger keyboard (in it's present form). There are already, and will continue to be, easier and cheaper ways to accomplish what arrangers can do. For (most of) today's audiences, only the extreme optics of a live band or the extreme audio of today's DJ's, will do. As Donny pointed out (and like it or not), in these situations, a OMB with an Arranger KB just won't cut it.

But what is the REAL reason Arrangers never really penetrated the market (at least, the PRO market) and seems destined for extinction? One word...STIGMA!!! This single thing has kept more than one good product from achieving market success. You can make all the arguments you want about it's professional features, it's stellar audio qualities, it's flexibility and ease of use, ect., ect., ad nauseum, but if most musicians and the general public still consider it an expensive 'toy', it will never achieve the kind of legitimacy that will make it acceptable in the marketplace.

As Tony said, when he goes out to be entertained, he wants to hear 'live' musicians, and I feel the same way. But until the general public reverses it's current trend and starts feeling the same way, the DJ's and KJ's will continue to rule (with LOUD Rock bands a close second---Jazz only seems to do well in concert and festival settings). So, aside from OMB's playing the Nursing Home circuit, where do Arrangers fit in? Beats me?

chas

Workstations are sub par for bands live use compared to stage pianos, like the nord stage 2, which is superb for live keyboard use as long as you dont need any sequencing..

Topline Arrangers are curently way to expensive, just look at the MOXF, its available umder 1000 euros and has all sounds and features of the Motif XF, except sliders, build quallity and aftertouch... (If it had aftertouch it would be a nobrainer in combination with Varranger, but i cant stand keybeds withouth aftertouch)


But then, one also must admit that current totl arrangers dont leave much to wish for... But then, yamaha surprised many with the T5, i think the ensemble feature is the most innovative arranger feature we have seen in a very long time... And when you just look at the T5, what could one wish for?

- better and more in depth edditor
- touchscreen
- some knobs to comtroll parameters in real time
- better PC integration ( same as the Motif would be awesome)
- some arranger features like a chordsequencer are still missing..
- more sample ram.. Or even better, an SSD to replace the flashram..
- 8 elements/ sound like the motif
- more polyphony
- instant startup feature

And then none of those are a musthave, they are just wishes, not even supported by most players...

If they want to keep people upgrading their arrangers everytime they sell a new model, then they must add more drool features in the future... And if they want to pull the youth to arrangers, they need to do some serious promotion with those new drool features...

When you look at the Motif or MOFX, young people call the arpeggios one of the coolest features of the board.. Yet they dont seem to realise that those arpeggios are nothing but a very waterred down version of an arranger style...


I personally made the move to workstations a few years ago, but i returned to arrangers combined with VSTs, because this allows me to do what i want to do most, make music and toy with sounds. Back then soft arrangers where really underperforming, and failed to convince me... Yet these days Varranger combined with the MOFX performs stellar, for €1300 it really is tempting.

Again, the potential of the arranger is only limited by the talent and creativity of the player...which is much the same for all instruments, including piano and organ.

I liked the flexibility of my Electones (D-85, HX-1, E-75) especially the three manual versions, but since I also wanted to play out on gigs as well as at home, the arranger was far more feasible, especially so since they have really added some incredible features and styles.

As far as boring bass lines...that's what the instrument's Style Creator is for...making more interesting bass lines and other components of the style. You have up to at least 32 bars (over 4 Variations) to put in whatever you think will be more interesting. Then, of course, there is the addition of bass pedals if so wished.

Storage is no longer an issue, so if a player so wished, he/she could use several styles during a tune.

The arranger has a sequencer like a workstation, but I like being able to incorporate a style (or use it as a basis) for recordings, whether at home or in the studio...I also have the use of multi-pads.

The Tyros4 replaced several keyboards we used in the studio, and it not only makes a great controller, it works well being operated by a weighted action controller.

By far, the nicest aspect of the arranger, is to be able to sit down, switch on, pick a style and play a complete tune, using whatever chords I want and in whatever arrangement (or genre) I choose to play.

As I said earlier, its immediacy is one of its best features, but certainly not its only feature.

Ian

I love arrangers. I want one of each.

Or at least two...one for each hand!

Very true, chas ... I look at an Arranger as being analogous to the "Saturn" automobile - a fine product, with a sort of 'cult' following, that never caught on with the general public ... and eventually fell into oblivion - not that I feel AKBs are going to be extinct anytime soon, but I do think that as the current 'young' generation grows, venues for AKBs will be harder to find - ... Even as Saturn engineers improved the design of the car to compete with the Hondas of the world, the general public saw it as a 'poor man's auto', and would not be seen driving one ... Much like the situation with some 'pro' musicians and AKBs ...




Not so true, chas ... while the Arranger may have LIMITED appeal, OMB players do fairly well in restaurants, Country Clubs, and other venues ... just ask some of the OMB guys here who DON'T only play NH/Assisted living establishments, etc. ... but, as I alluded to above, how long that will last - who knows? ...

Arrangers! Stigmatized? No doubt in some circles they are.

I know if I mention Wersi to anyone who plays keyboards, they immediately think of polkas, beer garden music, shiny suits, or Blue Spanish Eyes/Tico Tico played with vigor and/or drama...

The stigma factor never occurred to me when I played a high end restaurant for nearly a dozen years using an arranger keyboard...I laughed all the way to the bank!

Ian

Well, "laughing all the way to the bank" is a relative term; you (or me) 'laughing all the way to the bank' is not the same as say, John Legend or Billy Joel 'laughing all the way to the bank'. In the words of my hero, DNJ, "just sayin'.



chas

All the upper level arrangers are great...most with great sounds features and quality keybeds..

What makes an arranger the best....flexability....we can do what we want..quickly, without limits..

Most "pros".. "Purist"...don't have a clue or hands on experience..for what they could accomplish with an arranger..

Myself, I prefer to limit the auto play parts..usually full piano mode, and use 3 auto parts ..drums, bass, and rhythm (guitar etc)..and almost always "bass on" with slash chords..

Quickly switch to SMF play with 4 markers..another big plus...On board sequencer for times when you need it..and onboard editing that rivals any keyboard....That is what non users are missing...

Remember also, that almost all of the top level pros (on TV/Concert circuit etc)do not need to provide more than their ONE part at a time ... there's a band for that. There are exceptions to the multi-taskers in Rock & Jazz history - consider John Paul Jones (Zep), Jimmy Smith(B3 master), Ray Manzarek(Doors) - all played bass while holding down the keys. That was the early suggestion that maybe one man could do more with better tools. Well, we have better tools now, so I intend to use them to their capacity. The argument of playing sequences as "boring" baffles me ... didn't we all start out just playing our parts while all the other parts were played by the rest of the band? (digital, or otherwise?)I see performing with a sequence as equal to performing with a band - I do my thing, and what I can't, or choose NOT to do ... is handled by other sources. Typically, I start the night with simple arranger patterns - left hand bass, right hand Rhodes and drums - as the night advances, I add more backing parts and use sequences or MP3s as called for. Some tunes just can't be beat in their original format, and the crowd responds in kind.
I love the flexibility of using all the tools, as I see fit to orchestrate the night. The best arranger? ME, of course ... I'm the guy at the helm - the big cheese, the lead vocalist and the caller of the tunes. It's GOOD to be the king.

The "PERCEPTION" in peoples minds of "Arranger Kb's" being the
"NEW HOME ORGAN" scenario is in full force and here is where the problem thinking lies. Home players regard it as one thing and pro Players gigging every night in what ever way perceive it in another way. But as a whole in the music industry an Arranger KB is a minority just look around you in a live music picture in clubs, TV, Concert, or any other live venues. It's just a instrumental automatic computerized tool that can be manipulated to do various musical chores in different ways for the player. But for the mainstream music scene its far from that in reality. Blame it on ignorance, laziness, or whatever you choose the facts are the facts. How this thinking will figure into the future that will show if Arranger Kb's Die Out we all have to wait and see won't we?

They don't build them for the rigors of the road because they are targeting a different audience. Some of the higher end pieces, like the 9000Pro, the PA3x and the Audya are all built like tanks and could easily find their way on a touring stage someday soon.

Of course most of this is from a United States point of view. I believe arrangers are much more widely used and accepted in other parts of the world.

I think you're right, Don.

Certainly not, Chas...I was speaking in relative terms, of course.

Now I go to the bank to give the tellers a bit of comedy relief...they look at my pension cheque and say, "Ha, you're livin' on THAT...what a joke!!"

My last year at my old house, I was so poor...the mice left!

Ian

I suppose I should have made my point more clear.

Playing along with a backing sequence can certainly be done in many interesting ways, and, this of course, depends on the parts you leave out (or shut off) and the portion you play on your instrument.

What I find particularly hard to watch is someone singing over the entire full backing and only occasionally, if at all, playing the odd melody or brief solo...this is sometimes accompanied by walking away from the keyboard completely and just singing.

To me, that's just plain keyboard karaoke....nothing wrong with it per se, but someone billing themselves as a "keyboard player" is guilty of an exaggeration...to "play" does not mean pressing the "play" button on the sequencer and letting the instrument do 99.999% of the accompaniment.

Yes, I do fully understand about playing "your part" in the sequence, as if you were in a virtual band...perhaps some piano or organ chords, fills and leads, and that makes perfect sense.

I suppose it all hinges on just how much actual live participation (playing the keys) is being done by the performer that would lift it out of keyboard karaoke and into an area where someone actually provided a relatively major part of the accompaniment themselves.

Again, it's not the actual singing over a backing track sans any real playing that I find hard to take...I think some performers that do this are very good and do quite well at it.

It's when they say they are "playing" but it is clear they are not.

We all have our pet peeves, David...yours is the word "gig"...mine is "keyboard karaoke".

Ian

Ian ... you said the "g" word!

Auto arranger is a fantastic tool to make music,
and I'm lucky to have them all in my studio.

Arrangers are still underestimated...



If there is one video that shows that Arrangers in europe are more alive then ever, it is this one.. It shows
- Arrangers are so much fun to play
- Arrangers are still innovative, the proof is in the Yamaha Ensemble function. No professional synth workstation has this feature
- Ensemble enhance the performance of casual players, but if you watch the whole video you will realize that exactly this feature allows experienced players to shine and sound stunning.
(on top of that, the 3rd party styles show how good STyles on the Yamaha can sound)

So can we agree Arranger KBs are dying out for Pro Player use on stage and still alive for Home players use as originally intended?

I still use mine to "gig" (sorry Dave!)and the majority of my clients that use them on stage still use them. I'm not really sure how the new buyers are going with arrangers, although I've done several private tutorials with guitar players/vocalists that are using the new S950 and S750 solely as a midi file player on stage.

I also still get the occasional call or email from keyboard players (mainly piano players) with questions concerning how I went about integrating the arranger into a solo instrumental act (for restaurants etc.) but I can't really comment on the actual sales going to pro players as I am not with the company anymore and rarely go to music stores.

I suspect it has leveled off a bit.

It certainly will be interesting to see what the "big two" (Yamaha and Korg) will add to their upper end arranger line in the way of features to entice present owners to trade up to a new model.

So far, at least in my case, I haven't seen anything strong enough to make me want to upgrade. I suppose, since we can't predict the future, we will have to wait and see what these companies come up with in the future and how that will influence the pro player.

Ian

Restaurant background gigs are like playing in your living room compared to performing alone in front of a 300-400 pp high energy "dance crowd"an Arranger in that scenario alone ain't gonna cut it using just styles & vocals in today's world............

Actually, I made quite a bit of money doing restaurant gigs...usually substantially more than solo vocalist/arranger players in my area...plus, I didn't have to deal with drunks and over enthusiastic (ignorant/loud/bossy) patrons.

I like the relaxing atmosphere of the restaurant and the freedom to play pretty much whatever I want (usually stuff I already love to play) and the much easier to take lower volume level.

I've done several duo dance gigs (guitar-vocalist or vocalist only) with fairly large audiences (600-800 people), and although it was okay, it isn't for me as a steady diet. I much prefer being in the background yet still sharing my music with others. In fact, I just turned down a duo gig with an expected relatively large audience (400-500 people) as I just prefer quieter settings.

I also do quite well with studio work and making demo tunes for upcoming artists...and 99% is done with just the Tyros4 so my overhead is very low. I have a terrific Electro-Voice RE-15 vintage mic that vocalists just love to use...it's warm with lots of character and the sound is nicely detailed.

To each his own, I suppose. A few of my arranger clients play to large dance crowds but I can take or leave such gigs...I feel lucky to be retired and not need to play solely for the money...I can pick the jobs I know I will like.

Ian

Only because they refuse to add those features needed to make acceptable trance to arrangers, its not abouttechnollogy, but its about workflow...

Tough a few weeks ago i was at a huge wedding and the OMB was using a tyros 5, NI Maschine and a korg Taktile .... And he was quite able to sattisfy both the older and the younger... Everything from German schlagers, johan Straus, pop, rock dance and trance was played and of the highest quallity...


I think the guy even used his Tyros 5 midi outs to create a true synth ensemble...

I think that you will find a strong correlation between the downturn in the sales of arranger keyboards and workstations and other luxury items with the downturn in the economy. This is not because those items are less desirous than they were a few years ago. It is simply because the finance to pay for these expensive items isn't there at this moment.

However I visit numerous keyboard forums/communities and almost without exception the talk for the most part concerns the next Korg Kronos or the next Yamaha motif hardware workstation . Even those that use computers and laptops and VST s are still talking about the next hardware instrument and how it can be integrated with their software setup.

I think talk about the death of arranger keyboards is premature.

Chas touched on the fact that there is a stigma attached to arranger keyboards. And this is true. There is a lot of misinformation about arranger keyboards that exists even now. Especially amongst workstation/performance keyboard users.

Most of this misinformation concerns the perceived limitation of an arranger in producing your own customised music, it's gig readiness , it's flexibility and suitability in terms of fitting into a studio setup.

Sadly, some of this misinformation has actually been put out by the companies that sell the product themselves, in order to prevent the cannibalisation of its overall keyboard sales.

But I have no doubt that arrangers have a lot of life left in them yet .

The biggest problem in the thinkings of synth workstation users and arranger players is that they view styles as an automatic NON creative lazymans idea vs creating music "from scratch" the way the musician wants it to sound track by track ....part by part......There's nothing wrong with repetitive auto styles but lets face it "Real music" in no way sounds & is orchestrated like an arranger style. then you have the thinking of LAZINESS on the part of the arranger player vs a workstation player who has the talent to CREATE track by track a song that has certain parts that cannot be reproduced using a repetitive style variation method. Nobody is right,....no one is wrong, it's all perception in thinking and what the masses will embrace,...

Glad I don't have to please "the masses", rather just a gathering of people who like what I do in most cases.
DNJ, from the photos of your dances you have posted I don't see anyone younger than about 80.
I really can't remember the last time someone criticized my choice of instruments. The out-of-work bands who come to my "gigs" trying to get my job have no clue what is generating the music, but they do see me actually playing and are generally more jealous than judgmental.
If they look up there and see Korg, or Yamaha they often ask what synth I'm using. If they saw Casio they would most likely turn noses up and thumbs down. It's all perception.
I think arranger use by pros, around here at least, is so rare that most people don't know what they are and generally don't care.
If I wanted to sound "just like the record", I would use backing tracks or midi files, but I don't. I mostly keep the styles quite simple, with bass, drums and a piano/and or guitar strum and do all the lead playing and arrangements myself on the fly, in real time.
In case some are not aware, this requires a LOT more talent, dexterity, mental awareness, etc., than just playing an instrument in a band, softly comping until it's time to solo for 8 bars, or doing the same while "playing" with a backing track of some sort.
If they want a DJ, then hire one. I'm a one-man-band!!

Don don't judge a book by its cover ....
I perform for all ages all the time....
I can hear the hostility in some of these posts but it is what it is. Anyway let's get back to the OT....or should the topic have been..."Are Arranger Kb's dying out?"

Well said, Don.

I like "personalizing" my music, and generally I'm hired for what I play rather than what someone thinks I should play.

It's also why I get a fair amount of studio work as I can provide a background unique to a particular need. Oftimes I'll become an integral part of the production of a song writer's music simply because of the vast scope of styles and genres the arranger provides, as well as being able to customize to my heart's content.

I also decline gigs that require some sort of compromise where I may be expected to provide DJ music or play in genres I know I'm not suited for or, quite frankly, not interested in either.

I'm a firm believer in not "spreading myself too thin" and I avoid venues and gigs that expect more than what I actually produce...I'd rather turn down a job rather than screw one up and make a bad name for myself.

I guess what I'm saying, is that I'm aware of my limitations and try to stay within what I am good at, and that goes for the limitations of my instrument as well.

Ian

PS...I'm glad to see you are getting back to gigging.

The arranger keyboard is a pre-set instrument, as an example the Tyros SA Guitar, everything is built in to make it sound good even if played by an inexperienced player, however unless one of the on-board guitars matches what is required in a production or band setting, they are of no use.

With a workstation you get basic guitar sounds, which you then add the embellishments you want, (Using real time controls) for your production or band play and save it in a patch.

To setup the guitar on the arranger, you have to remove all the manufacture applied embellishments then add what you want, however because an arranger has severely limited real time controls and limited editing features, (You have to keep switching between menus which is time consuming) means making a setup for your specific use a pain in the rear. (Yes it can be done, but no one in a production or band environment wants all that hassle)

Bill

Obviously there is no comparing those two scenarios, but that doesn't mean all restaurant gigs are 'background' either ... in a couple of weeks I will be filling in for another OMB at an upscale (great food, high prices) Italian restaurant in Massachusetts ... after about an hour of bossas, ballads, light 'jazz' tunes, I will be expected to get people on the dance floor ... now I will admit, it's not a large room - about 75 - 100 people or so, and they will not be looking for me to be performing top 40, floor thumping music, but 'background'??? not really ... and I will be mixing it up with self made backing track mp3s and a few midi files, but mostly it will be me PLAYING and singing ...

Ian’s observations are my views, as well. I pick and choose gigs, knowing full well my strengths and limitations. I hope they never stop making arrangers, since they fit perfectly the retired-age groups that supply most of my gigs. My community is loaded with many loud bars, with bands catering to the young set. Let ‘em pack those places.
I hope and pray they don’t show at my gigs. They’d be sadly disappointed. But, many others are not disappointed. To my knowledge, I’m the only one around here playing an arranger. It’s served well, now, for 8 years steady work in a fine dining restaurant setting. No dance floor, only background music. I’m part of a larger group, when dance music is called for. No arranger is used in those settings.

Tony WTG mixing it up....it's a big necessity gigging today for sure.

Regardless of whether you use a workstation or an arranger, it still comes down to the amount of creativity and talent in the user.

I've heard stuff created on an arranger that would be impossible on a workstation, and vice versa.

All instruments have their limitations...even the everyday ones like piano and guitar...some music sounds dreadful if played on a different instrument than it was written, or intended, for.

I use an arranger because its features are more conducive to the type of work I do and the music I play...a workstation would be too slow and tedious for me. I can easily live with the minor limitations of my arranger, the Tyros4, so the choice for me was easy.

Back to Donny's question, "Have arranger keyboards died out?"

I'd say, based on what I see on the various arranger forums...not yet!

However, IF they will remain popular, is anybody's guess.

The numbers don't seem to have changed much in regards to being used by professionals if our SZ forum is any indication, but it looks pretty healthy in the home use area if what we see on YouTube is any evidence, and that's what they are primarily designed for....HOME. It's just that some pros were able to see the value of using an arranger in a one-man-band format, and hence the number of dedicated users here on SZ.

I simply like the work flow an arranger keyboard provides for what I do musically, and I love it's versatility in being able to be used "live" (like being able to sit down and play a complete song with no hassle) as well as in a recording environment.

To me, an arranger has always been the "Swiss Army Knife" of keyboards....that's why I am confirmed user and supporter of the instrument.

Ian

Obviously if the HOME Arranger Kb market stays a bit steady due to previous Home wooden organ players trying to still enjoy the hobby of playing organ but now have benefits of using a arranger......The pro market for arranger & the OMB concept using them Decreases due to the younger crowd and their music 99% being Dj'd arrangers do still have a chance for longevity but has splintered and branched out to specific areas as mentioned. But I would have to say that Arranger KB's as a whole with world wide public acceptance not so much any more. That said I don't think they will ever totally die unless manufactures stop making them all together and players have to hold on to what ever units they can grab and stock pile them. The home organ market will keep them alive until they are gone in years to come and the younger set finds a new way of doing it.

Sad things .... How can those synthworkstation people call style files non creative, while they themselves use midifiles that are even less creative then playing with styles...


Personally i think arrangers are the best for replaying music otheres created, and vpfir rearranging that music to give it your own soul and arrangeemnts..

Synth workstations and daws are best for people that want to create their own music and sound... And since a DAW is better at it then a hardware workstation, my best bet is that synth workstations are dying.


Good example is Yamaha, their last real update to their Motif line was... Like 6 years ago, when they released the XS, but they are still upgrading their Tyros line... The difference between a T3 and a T5 is huge, and the T5 sounds actually better then the current Motif in allmost every way....

Thats all well and good and you make a few good points ..
but the numbers don't lie! ....look around you on almost every stage,....TV....concert venue, etc,
what do you see?...NORD, ROLAND Fanthom, KORG Kronos,
Yamaha Motif, Kurzweil, ....
sorry with that alone I rest my case.