I am new at using software based MIDI creators and editors. In the old days I was using a Roland MC-50 Mk-II. Nowadays I use my BK-9's internal SMF creator. I also have Cakewalk Audio Pro 9, but that I couldn't use until just recently, when someone gave me an old laptop with Windows 7 on it.

Is anyone of you familiar with Cakewalk Pro 9?

I'm also interested what type of DAW's are you using?

I don't do a whole lot with MIDI. But I have made multi-track SMFs by playing my Roland INTO a Yamaha PSR-S910. The BK-9 by itself is serviceable, but I liked the color screen on the Yamaha better.

I never really came to grips with any DAW. Along with hardware considerations, it seems like the focus is on audio clips. I make too many mistakes for that, I want to be able to edit every note, so I'm inclined to stick with MIDI sequencers.

There are many videos on You Tube that show the differences between DAWs and what may be the easiest to use for you. (There is no one size fits all)
Most DAWs also have trial versions available so you can find one that suits you before purchase. (I've always liked Cubase)
If you are Mac user, then the free Garage band will probably be all that you need. (If you want a new computer and would like to get into Mac, then the new Mac Mini is fantastic value. (Just make sure you get the 512GB storage version)
When it comes to editing Midi (Or audio) there is no substitute for a big screen.

Bill

If you can’t upgrade the donated laptop past Windows 7, you need to be looking into what was current during its time.

I can only speak to my experience, but of all the sequencers/DAW’s I have used, I found Cubase the best at dealing with MIDI. Other DAW’s handled audio more conveniently for certain, and every DAW has something unique and possibly useful, but I found Cubase presented the MIDI in a visually clear system of editors.

Frequently used functions like selecting a specific range of pitches inside a specified window (position in the bar, velocity window or degree of proximity to the grid e.g.) were easy to accomplish. This makes tasks like evening out a backbeat snare or selecting ONLY notes a set distance away from perfect (and leaving those ‘close enough’ alone) to be quantized etc. a much faster task than say ProTools or Logic.

It also had the advantage of being cross platform, so if you wanted to migrate from Windows to MacOS (or Vice versa!) you didn’t have to learn a totally different DAW.

But that’s just me. Everybody has their own workflow that might be better served by Ableton Live, or Reaper or Fruity Loops or Logic etc..

If you like working with audio loops, or composing EDM tracker style music, or want to do acid house and trance, each style of composing has its own fans with favorite features. It’s not an easy choice, and the wrong one can easily cause frustration!

Take your time, do your research. An OS as old as Win7 may give you its own set of challenges trying to get old versions to authorize.

Best of luck!

Thank you for all your replies. For my needs, all would probably work fine. I'm mostly into ballroom music, 60's rock, slow beats, jazz standards and Latin music. Back in the 90's I was using my MC-50 MkII for creating backing tracks, but with the BK-9, I don't even bother with the MC-50 anymore.

Now that I got this Windows 7 laptop with a working Cakewalk Pro 9 on it, I connected the BK-9 to it, and it recognized it. So I said let's give it a try, but I was interested in what you are using.

I think I'm on the right track, I found a manual for the Cakewalk Pro9.

https://www.synthmanuals.com/manuals/cakewalk/pro_audio_9/users_guide/pro_audio_9_userguide.pdf

Don't connect to the internet in any way or form as Win 7 support finished donkeys years ago so there have been no security fixes or updates, thus leaving the machine vulnerable.
With an old laptop think about installing Linux Mint (There are plenty of free DAWs available for it) as it will give you security and peace of mind. (Make sure all the software you use is able to run on Linux, or has a Linux equivalent)
Note there are other versions of Linux Desktop if Mint is not to your liking. (Coming from Win 7 it should be ideal though)

Bill

That's very good advise thank you, I will never go on the internet with it, I'll use it as a stand alone computer. I had no intention in connecting it to the internet, this laptop with Windows 7 will only be used with my BK-9, and the two are a good match, so far they work together very well .

Linux Mint is nice, there is a MIDI program for Linux called Rosegarden, although it's kind of finicky to use, but there are others too, if you can make them to work, some of them shut down multiple times without any reason, they are not very stable.

That's why I like this Cakewalk 9, it's stable, logical and intuitive, plus at some point in time Cakewalk was owned by Roland from 2008 to 2013. It might be an old software, but if it works, who cares?

Maybe later I'll switch over to Cakewalk by Bandlab. I saw a video posted by Jeremy See an internet keyboard review-expert on how to get Cakewalk by Bandlab (I'll post a link below if you'd like to watch it) and also how to connect it to a cheap Yamaha E383 and EW310. Since I have a Yamaha EW-310 that I use around the camp fire (it has batteries) I gave it a try and it works. It might be a cheap Yamaha, the EW-310, but it has a feature that is missing from the BK-9, but it's also missing from the Genos 1 that costs a zillion times more, it has (believe it or not) a built in Audio Interface, so you can record audio and MIDI directly into the Cakewalk by Bandlab with only a USB cable.

Link to Jeremy See on how to get Cakewalk by Bandlab:
https://youtu.be/ldyAMCSRvC0?feature=shared


Although my worries with Cakewalk by Bandlab, is that what if one day it might not be free. Even now you have to log into there website once in a while, otherwise the program limits the tracks, or something like that. I like stuff that always work, and the passage of time shouldn't affect them, I'm just old fashioned.


I share this link to a tutorial about Cakewalk by Bandlab, for anyone that might be interested in it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee75dABG...l=CreativeSauce

The only tutorial that I found on You Tube about Cakewalk Pro Audio 9 -> from Eric Christopher Mestre:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw2W1psV...estre-EuropaMan

I think before you paint yourself into a corner (it’s difficult to break workflow habits once you spend significant time in any one ecosystem) it’s wise to network with others who are using other programs, and see if any of the others suit you better.

One thing I’m curious about is, if your donated laptop isn’t connected to the internet, what are you using to post here? A tablet might offer a more up to date DAW than an old Cakewalk version…

Diki's post reminded me of something... I'm not sure if it could be considered a full-fledged DAW. But I found an amazing app for my iPad called MIDIculous. Some of you know that I'm a chord recognition / style editing geek. I've been using MIDIculous to see the notes coming out of the BK-9's arranger engine, displayed on the grand staff in real time. It's great for that! (In the past I had to record the played chords to a sequencer, and then review the output in a score viewer. MUCH easier with MIDIculous!) FWIW.

I’d say if using an iPad, Cubasis for iOS might be a good choice, as much of its functionality and look is mirrored in the full Mac/Win computer Cubase. Alternatively, if thinking about eventually getting a nice used Mac Mini and Logic, there’s a Logic for iPad too.

Sadly, my current DAW (Reaper) doesn’t have an iPad version. Maybe one day… 🤞🏼

I'm using another laptop that has Linux on it, but I'm not very happy with some of the "free" Midi editors that Linux provides. I heard Reaper runs on Linux, since you mentioned "Reaper", does it display the score for the MIDI tracks? (the classic staff notation)


How user friendly is reaper? I mean think about someone like myself who only used Audacity or Cool Edit long time ago.

Can’t help with Linux. Been in the Mac universe since the mid 90’s. Probably for the same reason you went Linux… stability and freedom from viruses and malware! I have NEVER used any virus software and never got a virus in over 30 years of daily use…

I’m not doing as much with MIDI as I used to, I use Reaper because its audio handling is pretty good, and it works natively with mp3 files (rather than most DAW’s convert them to .wav’s first, making project backup quite heavy on the storage). But for MIDI it’s not as elegant and mature as Cubase or Logic. It can get the job done, but it’s not pretty!😍

I’m not sure it has a score editor, and to be honest I find even the best of them useless unless you’re trying to print out parts for a session. Music notation is interpretive, not literal, so for editing MIDI the piano roll display is your best solution.

Most DAW’s have a trial version or a free limited version. Give them all a go, see which one ‘clicks’ with you. It’s often more a case of aesthetics rather than sheer power. They all CAN do pretty much the same thing, it’s more a case of finding the one that does it the way your brain thinks it ought to be done… 😂🤔

There were two reasons why I switched to Linux, first one you already mentioned, I got tired of viruses . Second, I have to thank the team at Microsoft for "creating" Windows 8 . At that point I knew that I'm not going to put up with the stupidity of that OS , so I switched to Linux and never looked back.

The reason I use Audio Pro9,is that it's very elegant and user friendly while working with MIDI files , and I prefer using MIDI, I tell you why. When I create a backing track on the BK-9, sometimes the arranger freaks out while I'm doing the chord progression, especially if you have a piano in the style, it creates some unwanted notes as you go from one chord to the other, even though I also slow down the tempo to 60-65 BPM, and it still does it here and there. So my option is to either go into the Micro Edit inside the BK-9, or load the file into Pro Audio 9 and fire up the piano roll or the staff view. That's all I need a DAW for, and for that Pro Audio 9 is more than adequate, but I'll might give it a try to that Reaper, since they have one version for Linux.

For creating music sheets I use Musescore 3, I can even save those scores as MIDI files, from there I can load them into the BK-9, and define the instruments to whatever I want it. With Audio Pro 9 I can load multiple MIDI files created in Musescore and merge them together.

If I need to manipulate audio files, I use Audacity . These soft-wares might be stone age, but this is what I know how to use, although it would be nice to have one software that does it all, instead of a bunch of different ones, each doing different things. That's why I was curious what other folks are using, just to get an idea.

As long as it works as well as my MacOS version, I think you’ll like Reaper. I think Audacity uses VST plugins, so anything that Audacity has (compression, EQ, etc) should be immediately available to Reaper along with its own plugins.

Be careful about relying too much on charts… do your best to work on memorizing your music. It’s a skill that comes with practice. Before you open any chart, try playing it without the chart, see how much you remember. The more you do it, the more you will!

If it’s your own music, there’s a chance that you might improve it by misremembering it! You write it down, there’s much less chance of that! 😂🎹🤔😎🤩

KORG is the only brand I know that doesn't glitch in the manner you describe. The only other thing I might suggest, is to use one of the "Pianist" chord recognition modes on your BK-9, which require a minimum of 3 keys to be pressed before acknowledging a chord. Personally I use "Intelligent" which is good (and it doesn't penalize you for pressing 3 or more notes.) However, it will begin to acknowledge a chord with even one note pressed, and then try to fill the other notes of the pattern in late, using portamento to slide their pitch, etc. IMO this "hair trigger" behavior could be causing the unwanted notes you describe. My $.02.

Teds, that's exactly what's happening. I use "Standard" but I'll switch to "Intelligent" next time. I was also thinking about using the Chord Sequencer, and then creating the backing tracks. I'll have to look into it. It's not a major issue, but still... Thank you for your input.

You should try "Pianist 1" rather than "Intelligent." As long as you're already playing chords of 3 notes or more, it shouldn't require you to re-learn any fingering.

The way Korg avoids unwanted notes, is that they have a built-in DELAY for chord acknowledgement. From when you press the first note, I think it opens a "window" of about 20ms duration. It's the notes that are pressed at the END of this period which are used to compute the chord.

Ketron introduced a user-adjustable chord recognition delay on their latest model, the Event, and I've seen this feature in some software arrangers as well although I haven't tested these.

In the special "free play" styles I created for Roland, I did something to achieve a similar result. I have the notes beginning 2 or 3 "ticks" after the start of the style track. At 60 bpm, 3 ticks is 1/40 of a second, or 25ms. So you have that long to get all of your notes down before you'll hear anything. The downside is that you have to "lead" the beat with your chord input, and the arranger feels less responsive (this is somewhat true of Korg also.) The benefit is that it avoids smeary-sounding portamento. I'm not sure how well my approach prevents unwanted notes in the score. Once I switched to looking at live output in the MIDIculous app, I haven't been reviewing recorded scores as much. Hope you find this helpful!

You’re taking advice from a man who relies on chord shortcuts, Dengizich. If you play piano well (I’ve heard your demos, you play well!), you will get along best with Pianist2 mode. It delays the recognition of a new chord until you have FIVE notes down while using the sustain pedal, and really helps clean up pianistically played input. Three notes pedal up, five notes pedal down.

This mode was new to the BK series, the previous G70 had only the Pianist1 mode, and was MUCH harder to get good chord recognition from pianistic input. Pianist2 mode along with using the Dynamic Arranger feature (play harder and the backing plays harder!) has made it a real pleasure to play piano and have the backing track really well.

But to get the most accurate (zero errors) chord recognition, your best bet is to play the track into your DAW, then hard quantize and edit out any flubs, then send that track to the NTA (Note-to-arranger) channel. You’ll get perfect tracks, especially if you move the entire track back a few ticks so that it is FRACTIONALLY early (much less than a 1/16th) and that gives the arranger engine time to change to the new chord before the ‘one’.

If you think about it, unless you rush the beat a tiny bit with your playing, you are asking the arranger to anticipate your next chord, which of course it can’t do! And great music rarely ever rushes, it often drags very slightly to create a groove. This is one of the main problems arranger players face, and you can hear it in so many user demos: To get clean chord recognition most people tend to ‘push’ the beat a bit, and end up with nervous rushing solos. To play an arranger REALLY well, your left hand needs to push a tiny bit on the beat, but your right hand needs to either be spot on time or dragging very slightly (musically!).

I don’t know about you, but I find this damn near impossible! I spent my whole life trying to get both hands to groove the same way…

So the best way to get PERFECT no-glitch tracks is to record the chords, hard quantize and then slide back a few ticks. And then feed to the NTA. Record the results…

Hope this helps.

By the way, Universal Audio’s free DAW Luna has just got a Windows version. I haven’t tried it, but free is definitely worth investigating!

https://www.gearnews.com/universal-audio-luna-freeware-daw-software/

Diki, it's true that I'm not a skilled musician. I ONLY play chords with my LEFT hand. But 2-3 ticks is MUCH less than a sixteenth note. In Roland arrangers, a quarter note is allocated 120 ticks. So a sixteenth note would be 30 ticks. The 2-3 tick setback that I proposed is a fraction of that, and on-par with the non-adjustable window that I've observed on some Korg arrangers.

Dengizich stated that he was using "Standard" chord recognition. I recommended the use of "Pianist 1" because I know it won't start computing the chord until at least three keys are pressed. Personally I wouldn't know what to do with a sustain pedal!

Gentlemen, we are not here to judge one another. I take everyone's advice, and I highly appreciate it. It's pretty impressive how both of you deal with this issue, each in their own unique way. In reality, there is no right or wrong, as long as it works.

My next move will be to try the chord sequencer, since it would be the BK-9 playing the chords back, and hopefully it won't freak itself out, while recording it as a MIDI file, as long as it would allow me to do a recording while playing a chord sequence, we'll see, but all your inputs will also be taken into consideration.

I only wish that Roland would've done something similar with the BK-9 like Technics did with their arrangers, where you can instruct the arranger that you want a chord of C two measures, a chord of G7 for four measures, a chord of F for 2 measures etc. etc. and the arranger would create the chord sequence without a single note being played... all you would do is just to "type" in the chords...

Roland came out with the Go-Key 3 and 5 recently, and it has a similar function, a chord sequencer, take a look at the link below, and fast forward to 11:54. I assume that once the keyboard has the chord sequence (progression) you can create a backing track, and there shouldn't be any glitch whatsoever. Correct me if I'm wrong...
https://youtu.be/4IyLxXyPLjQ?feature=shared

Diki, I'm not sure where you heard my demo, are you sure you're talking 'bout me?

If you’re using a DAW to play to the NTA, it’s a piece of cake to edit and quantize the guide track. The problem with Ted’s system is that the range of chords it recognizes is far less than can be used. If you give it chords that are inversions, for instance EGAC, how does the chord recognition tell whether it’s Am7/E, or C6/E? You would have to be skilled using a pedal to switch on and off the Bass Inv. switch in real time to adjust for inversions and slash chords.

Edit your guide track to the NTA and you can play permanently in Bass Inv. ON the whole time and get a far larger choice of chords, inversions and slash chords.

The BK9 isn’t able to edit its Chord Track, which means you have to input the played guide track PERFECTLY. Not only perfectly as to notes, but also perfectly as to timing to be just a few ticks early. It’s horribly difficult to do this even slowed down unless the chord track is ridiculously simple! It’s also very bad for your playing to start rushing in general (slightly late or dead on time playing sounds great, but pushing the beat rarely sounds professional) simply to get clean guide tracks to the arranger engine.

I’m not sure if the Go keyboards have an automatic quantize for the Chord Track, but it’s missing from the BK9. In fact there’s no way to edit the CS at all. IMO, Roland should have used an SMF as the format for the CS, but they went with a proprietary format, so you can’t copy it to a DAW (or the internal 16-track sequencer) and edit or quantize it. With Korg’s you can do this…

So you have to use a DAW track to the NTA channel.

But, bottom line, although in an edit window of a DAW, you may see a bunch of code to deal with the arranger changing slightly late input to the NTA to the correct new note, unless you can HEAR it, let it go. You can edit the track to remove all extremely short notes (they will be the notes from the previous chord) and quantize the late notes that are the new notes to the closest 16th and that fixes it as well.

It’s a REALLY bad playing habit to get into, rushing your playing a tiny bit to get cleaner chord recognition… it’s one of those things that’s VERY hard to turn on or off once you start doing it. And even harder to learn to push your LH and drag your RH!

If slowing the track WAY down is still leaving you with the odd late chord input, I think it’s better to use a DAW track to drive the NTA than learn to push the beat.

Last thought, perhaps it’s worth contacting anyone that is making a software Roland style player, and see if they might be willing to code a utility that converts between Roland’s Chord Sequencer file format (it still is basically an SMF but with a non standard suffix and some other little code things) and an SMF. That way you could create the CS on the BK9, export to the DAW, edit it, and then convert back to the Roland format.

Diki, I look up to you, and to your advice , but I have to remind you that while you are at the college level, I'm still in first grade elementary school.

So, you have to explain things in detail. What exactly do you mean by using a DAW to control the Note to Arranger? I never ever used NTA, and I'm very limited when it comes to using a DAW.

Do you mean to create a track in a DAW, with a piano sound for example that would be playing chords, and that track I would feed back to the arranger?

Tell me how to setup the BK-9 and a DAW (in detail) in order to control the arranger from a DAW.

I usually edit MIDI songs with Cakewalk by BandLab. I play Yamaha arrangers and Cakewalk turned out to be a better solution than Cubase. If more detailed MIDI processing is needed, then I use XGWorks, which is the only one that can handle XG Sysex data.

Yes, I used good old Cakewalk Pro 9 and nowadays I sometimes run it because it has just about everything needed to process midi files.

There are several videos on my channel that describe how I process MIDI. I put one here that you might find interesting.
Genos Style recording in Cakewalk - create MIDI file (Song) from Yamaha Arranger

LeonB. Cakewalk by Bandlab requires you to sign in every month, just so you can save your project. I like to use software that I can use even if the internet is going to be down for the next 1000 years. I'm sure it's a great program, no doubt 'bout that, but due to what I mentioned above I'd rather stick with something that I have control over.

Dengizich, I'm also not a fan of Internet-dependent software, or any hardware that depends on a PC, tablet, etc., for full functionality.

Regarding Diki's post on the previous page... he's suggesting that you record the notes that trigger your chord changes to an external sequencer--either a DAW or a hardware sequencer. Quantize them, delete any false notes, and save as a Standard MIDI file. Then, play that SMF back INTO the arranger on the Note To Arranger "NTA" channel. (This are the MIDI channel(s) the BK-9 uses to control its style engine.) This approach will give you perfectly-timed chord changes with no glitches. With the external MIDI controlling the style, you'll still be able to trigger fills, variations, etc. Heck, you could even change to a different style mid-song! This approach frees your left hand from slavishly playing chords, so you can work the bender or comp with both hands if you have the skill to do so.

I have no doubt that this would produce a highly-professional result. The only downsides I can think of are that it's no longer 100% "live," so spontaneity is reduced (not sure how much that matters to you.) I also suppose if you mess up the part you're playing live, if your vocalist is late, etc., the MIDI driving the style will be like a runaway train; it might be hard to regain your place in the music. Features like Mark and Jump could provide a safety valve.

As I've stated before, I'm not a musician-- I'm a gadget geek who likes music. I perceive a spectrum of interaction from passive to active. For example: you can listen to .mp3s (passive). You can launch pre-recorded audio clips. You can play over a "canned" SMF. You can let a MIDI drive your style, as Diki describes. You can play "chords" (with one or more fingers) to control the style in real time. Most interactive would be two-handed piano, or perhaps a two-manual organ with bass pedals. There is no "best" approach. Only your goals and preferences, limited by your personal ability (and time to practice!)

A couple more clarifying comments... Am7 and C6 are comprised of the same notes. On Roland arrangers, even in Pianist 2 mode, the sixth chord is ONLY recognized in root position. You might force the display to show C6/E by sending MIDI to the NTA with an E bass on a different channel. However, I suspect the style will play back exactly the same as it would if you turned on Bass Inversion and pressed EGAC. In other words, the bass track(s) would play in E, and the remaining accompaniment tracks would play some combination of the four notes.

I have indeed devised a way using MIDI Solutions modules to make Bass Inversion a MOMENTARY function (as available natively on Roland's FP-series pianos.) It's on while the pedal is held down. I don't have to press a second time to turn it off. So it's very easy to use in real time for the odd slash chord, while playing other chords in any convenient inversion. I've observed that my beloved "one-finger" Major chords in Intelligent mode always trigger the root bass. This makes songs with slash chords easier to play, even if you leave bass inversion on the whole time. Also, one-finger Majors don't glitch or produce false notes; there's never a problem with notes added late because you only have to press one key! Remember, no one works harder than me at looking for the easy way out! :-)

What's wrong with running software on a PC when it can give you great flexibility.

Bill

Wersi

abacus -> There is nothing wrong with running software on a PC, the problem is when that software requires you to connect to the internet every once in a while, in order to be able to save your work.

Teds -> Thanks for the explanation.