After seeing so many people post on Synthzone what features they want in an arranger or workstation and that even if it did cost more they'd most certainly buy one, I'd like to pose these questions to fellow Synthzone members.

1. Who here owns a Wersi OAS system, Mediastation, Oasys, NEKO, or any other high end arranger or workstation keyboard that costs in excess of $5K.

2. Who has bought an arranger or workstation keyboard that costs in excess of $7K.

3. How about $10K or beyond?

I'm not referring to a synth or keyboard you bought 15-20 years ago because back then few workstations, keyboards, or synthesizers cost less than $5K. In today's marketplace, who has shelled out this kind of money for the new high end keyboards? Please do not list computer systems, software, etc., just keyboards made within the past couple of years (that doesn't mean 5+ years ago either).

I'm not posing these questions to start a pissing contest, its not a contest. I'm just trying to see if there are truly as many of us here who have committed to buying a high end arranger or workstation when the cost is high. I'm guessing there are relatively few of us who have but I'd be happy to be shown otherwise.

I'll start with my list of high end arrangers and workstations:

Wersi Abacus Duo Pro V7
Lionstracs Mediastaton X-76 Expanded
Korg Oasys



[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 12-23-2006).]

WHY......No one is raising their hand is what I would like to know?

Fully loaded K2500S with all options and about $2k in library for it (bought back when it WAS the top-of-the-line workstation). It STILL does stuff nothing else can do....

Got about $7k tied up in a computer system with audio cards, audio processing cards (LOVE those UAD plugs!) peripherals and VST instruments like BFD, Ivory, Atmosphere, Halion, etc., etc.. (Just the computer, not outboard like monitors, mics, etc..)

I don't argue with you because I can't afford them, I'm just looking at the likeliness that after spending $7k+ on a hybrid, someone will have one with a two-years down the line CPU and hardware, for $3k, and what I already have can get me through that waiting period...

Back in the late 70's, early 80's, you had to have$20k+ to get a Yamaha FM keyboard. Then came the $2k DX7.... THAT'S what I'm kind of anticipating will happen to hybrids. There is only three out at the moment - MS, Neko and Wersi (Oasys doesn't count, because it is not Open). No major players at all, yet.

I'm going to get one, no doubt about it. But I (and probably most without really deep pockets) am going to wait a bit and see what happens.

Of the three keyboards you list, one (the Oasys) you are already posting about how you are likely to get rid of it, one (the MS) you have already acknowledged that it is STILL a 'work-in-progress', and only the Wersi gets the nod as a complete instrument....

Not a very good batting average for, what is it, nearly $30k's worth of keyboards? ($16k for the Abacus, $8k for an Oasys76, $5k for an MS, about right?)

Fully loaded Kurzweil K2600S bought it six years ago, also approx 2k in sample cd's and the rest of my comment is an echoe of Diki's..

I would like to add that I spended much more on guitars then I ever will do on keyboards.

Fred

I have got a fully loaded computer with a Roland A37 attached....a software based arranger. It works for me. It sounds better than any hardware based workstation or arranger....my opinion.

You are definitely reading more between the lines than what exists. I never said any of these keyboards weren't "complete" machines... All three do far more than any other synth, workstation, or arranger made today bar none. Yes, there are some things that I need and want I'd like to see in future upgrades, but that doesn't make these keyboards "incomplete" or "works in progress."

The Oasys I truly love the sound of and the real time controls. Where it is weak for me is the sequencer and hard disk recorder. I do elaborate sequences/recordings and for what I do the Oasys isn't up to par yet. I'm sure that my needs probably exceed most users and that the sequencer and disk recorder it already comes with is quite sufficient, but for me its not. If Korg does not improve these features in a future OS then the Oasys won't be a true workstation for my needs (I stress my needs as yours may vary greatly from mine). Whether or not I keep the Oasys as a glorified synth (its an awesome synthesizer by the way), I can't say for sure right now.

Its clear to me that most of the people who have commented on the Mediastation have never actually seen or used one in person. This excludes Fran, Jonesyboy, Magica Alfa, Richard, Craig, and myself. Why is it that people who have never seen or heard the MS in person can bash the hell out of it? You do not know what the keyboard can do or how it truly sounds by hearing some lame MP3 demos. Stop postulating what you think it is, wait until you hear it or play it in person before you jump to conclusions. Does the MS need some updates? Sure, what keyboard doesn't? Domenik is working on those daily and I commend him for his efforts. You aren't about to find another manufacturer with a commitment to their product like Lionstracs and Domenik.

Wersi is the pinnacle right now but Domenik is on their heels and Wersi knows it. I'm sure Wersi won't just sit back and relax, they will also work on future hardware and software updates so that their OAS systems remain the most advanced and easy to use. They've been doing OAS style instruments longer than anyone else and it truly shows in their GUI, sounds, and feature set. For anyone, even the big three to come out of the gate with something that will supersede the Wersi, it will be damned difficult to say the least. Even Korg's Oasys couldn't do it and Korg has been developing the Oasys for the past 10+ years.

I wish luck to any manufacturer who wants to try and buck the system and come out with a premier open ended instrument. I can't wait to see what lies in store for the future!

OK, it appears some people didn't read my post clearly so I'll make it even clearer. Please do not list a computer system, software, arranger, or workstation you bought 5+ years ago. As I stated, who has purchased any of the new high end "keyboards" made in today's marketplace? I did say keyboards. I'm trying to see who here has commited to buying the newest and most advanced keyboards made today which I believe to be very few of us. Please, let's try and stay on topic so this thread doesn't go off on a tangent.

On Februari 2006, I have buyed a WERSI Abacus KS1 Pro, in White; Price : 13.000 Euro. (about 16.900 US-$)

Can't get my hands off it !

If You want to see a picture, see the link.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RwAAAHcUa76HKAc7xzWzKQHU!gJG5KZu*zd7E5nRrz1QI9fH4N8NGiClxHBAzwmi3QHG9IrCD2bvg4dixO2aqSVlaQ7PrEhiikLNBdJ8Qsw/DSC004990.JPG?dc=4675577396421046860

Best Regards, and a Merry Christmas for everyone here.

Carlo.


[This message has been edited by Ketron User (edited 12-22-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Ketron User (edited 12-23-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Ketron User (edited 12-23-2006).]

Point, and counterpoint again. Basically, your whole post, other than the first sentence, just goes to show that, other than the Wersi, NEITHER of the other two are 'complete' machines..... At $5k, 8k or $20k a pop, I expect ANY keyboard to do what it claims. If the Oasys' sequencer and recorder are basic, at best, and you describe it's strengths as "a glorified synth", that's NOT a complete machine (and it isn't even an arranger, so perhaps it's strengths and weaknesses are moot......)

And no offense, but if you read from trade magazines or from users web postings that a new Ferrari is underpowered, you sure don't need to buy one to be in a position to comment (or even drive one). Unless ALL the negative postings and examples of ACTUAL OWNERS of the MS are total disinformation (and forget Fran's examples, Domenik's - the OWNER of the company, 'fer Chris' sake! - demos don't stand up to a T2 or E80 for realism, smoothness of variation/fill transition, and quality), I think there is enough actual information out there to make an informed comment. I can hear that at the website of the company, I don't have to buy one to hear it. MP3s don't hide ANYTHING other than overall audio quality, a poor transition or lame style isn't improved by it being 24bit!

So, the MS, while very capable, is not yet a good arranger (styles WILL fix most of that, but as you said, "For anyone, even the big three to come out of the gate with something that will supersede the Wersi, it will be damned difficult to say the least"). So, not a complete instrument.

Look, I and probably more members here than you care to admit, all know EXACTLY what good VST and GIGA instruments can sound like. I don't have to buy a MS to know that. That's why there IS such a demand for a hybrid. Lionstracs have got the VST side nailed (although there isn't a whole lot of postings about it from those that DO have one), but the arranger side needs work. Ergo... 'incomplete'.

Most peoples idea of an arranger/VST hybrid is exactly that...... NOT a VST hybrid with a flawed arranger, not a great arranger with flawed VST.... BOTH MUST BE GOOD!!

From all your posts, it seems apparent that the Wersi is the only complete arranger in your arsenal. At the ultra-high-end, you expect to get what you pay for. Ferrari DON'T make underpowered cars, you get what you pay for. If the MS is not yet complete, and for it to be complete it's styles need to better the T2 and E80, etc., it isn't yet worth the high-end it commands. When the styles get vastly improved (and other basic features like OTS get implemented) it will THEN be worth the money.

Most of us cannot afford the luxury of buying one of these things, just to find out if it works. EVERYBODY that buys one, or plays one, has to post here and go 'Oh My God! You have GOT to get one of these!" and the manufacturer website has to have demos that back up that claim, before we can consider the extra money over a T2 or E80 etc., is probably going to be worthwhile. That has not been our experience so far.

In the meantime, would you be willing to go out and do a full-on gig tomorrow, solo, with just the MS? If not, please don't try to tell us that it is a complete arranger...... (and if you WOULD, how about posting some arranger play examples of yours, because I would LOVE to hear something better than the factory demos).

Look, Ensnareyou, from previous postings, it appears you are a very experienced pro player. I wouldn't dream of saying otherwise. But for you to claim that no-one has the right to say ANYTHING about these instruments unless they have actually bought one (or played it, and even then, if their opinion didn't agree with yours, you would probably STILL dismiss it!) just whiffs slightly of elitism. I am sure you don't mean it that way, do you......?

Please don't get me wrong, I do not disrespect you in any way (very jealous of your rig, if the truth be known!), I'm just trying to get a point over about the purchasing ability, and need for price/value of MOST players, and especially arranger players. If the MS's styles section and arranger OS was as good as the competition, I would already have one! And when it DOES, Domenik will be getting my order (and I hope he forgives me for the hard time I'm giving him now!), and I will be one happy camper. But I, and I believe the majority of SZ members, are waiting for the day it achieves the superiority it's price demands. Wersi, on the other hand, I wish I could afford it, but at over three times the price of my current, VERY adequate arranger is beyond my means. Hopefully, they will not let MS have the $4-5k market to themselves, but if they do, they will be a distant memory when Domenik gets his styles figured out.

Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays to all.......

Diki,

The Oasys sequencer and hard disk recorder aren't incomplete, they are actually more advanced than any offering from Yamaha and most other manufacturers. I was just saying that for my needs, the Oasys isn't what it should be in an $8K+ keyboard. I expect full DAW style editing (similar to my Fairlight), numerous sequencer tracks (not just 16, 64 would be better), and microscope editing which it lacks. I'm sure Korg is going to change things in a future OS update but for now, it is what it is. That doesn't mean the Oasys isn't an awesome keyboard, it really is and there are few synths or workstations that can compete with it. In fact only the Wersi, Mediastation, and NEKO can compete.

As for the "elitist" comment.... you are missing the point of what I was saying. If you truly think you are getting the full picture of what the MS, Wersi, or any other keyboard is like from an MP3, you aren't. Until you play and hear the keyboard in person, you'll have no clue how good or bad the keyboard is, what its GUI is like, and what its real time controls and features are like.

I would not dismiss yours or anyone elses opinion if it was based upon fact, but as it stands now your opinion is merely based upon some weak MP3's, not from actually playing the instrument. My suggestion would be to play one in person, then come to an informed conclusion.

Hi Carlo
That�s a unique Abacus you have, it is the first Duo deluxe version I have seen that has a 25 Note Pedal board, (Normally reserved for the Pro version) it normally comes with a 17 Note Pedal board, plus additional speakers and 2 X 80w amplification to supplement the 2 X 30w, 4 speaker system in the abacus itself. (Does the 25 Note Pedal board replace the speakers and amplification)
Have a good Christmas, and Happy Playing

Bill

Diki wrote:
In the meantime, would you be willing to go out and do a full-on gig tomorrow, solo, with just the MS? If not, please don't try to tell us that it is a complete arranger......

Ensnareyou wrote:
The Oasys sequencer and hard disk recorder aren't incomplete, they are actually more advanced than any offering from Yamaha and most other manufacturers. I was just saying that for my needs, the Oasys isn't what it should be in an $8K+ keyboard. I expect full DAW style editing (similar to my Fairlight), numerous sequencer tracks (not just 16, 64 would be better), and microscope editing which it lacks. I'm sure Korg is going to change things in a future OS update but for now, it is what it is.

So..Oasys seem not complete, only a 16 tracks DAW that still seem not stable when you record the full 16 tracks and theu still under 16bit audio system.
Software updates every 6 months and still you are waiting for new features and bug fix...
Why they then are selling the Oasys from 2 years now that is not complete and stable?
Was not better waiting another 1 years untill they can merge a nice audio-midi sequencer unlimited audio/midi tracks like have the MS? http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/images/rosegarden-1.4.0-2.png
Or a powerfull DAW like the Ardour? http://ardour.org/files/main-screenshot-big.png
Same if for the PA-X pro, how many years was this keyboards in the market? And why they continue release new OS updates with bug fix too? http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/products/pa1x_soft.html?en


Yes..we know..the story is always the same..
Big company can sell wht they want and you buy for what the offer.. but from small company like Lionstracs, Wersi..ALL the features possible MUST be included (including 10k $ VST and sounds library) and of course FULL working or the product mean is not complete.

Look this old video from Musikmesse 2005: http://lionstracs.com/demo/video/wkx76jazz2.wmv
stll there the MS was working with the OLD 2 years OS release, of course was not complete like we have now but still was working and we was able to sell too.

Anyway guys.... HAPPY Christmas and good new year!
( Enjoy now the Christmas and Happy Playing....forget for some days the new keyboards...)

Hallo Bill,

I have a regular Abacus Deluxe, with a midified 25-note pedalboard (Spectra-pedalboard with buildin MIDI) attached.
So basically, now it is a Abacus Deluxe Pro.

I have also the OAS7 software running, with a prerelease of the new Open Art Arranger.
I can now load any Yamaha-style. I have all the Tyros-2 styles loaded in, and they sound amazing. There is a new soundbank with all the Megavoices from Tyros-2, and some new Drumkits, to play the styles. Therefore, the Styles are now playing very, very good.

Best Regards,
Greetings from Belgium.

Carlo.




[This message has been edited by Ketron User (edited 12-25-2006).]

Here is a small video dmo of the Ardour DAW on the MS display.
We can open different ardour windows on each Desktop ( up to 12 virtual desktop)
Ardour is unlimited audio tracks recorder in realtime, is like a clone of Pro Tools. http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/video/2006/Ardour.wmv

With all due respect but what you have written is completely incorrect.

I have completed many demos and full tracks using the Oasys's sequencer and HD recorder using all sixteen track and I have never had any problems with instability casued by the sequencer or the fact I am using all the tracks available.

Also, any software has bugs. Sp, yes, there have bneen upgrades every six months but those upgrades ahev not just been about fixing bugs. They have also been about adding incredible new features and sound engines like the STR-1 or the Korg MS20/Polysix emulations to name a few.

The problem with 'workstations' that are based on a PC running VST for example.. is that the chances of bugs caused by interations with other programs is vastly increased. Let's also not forget to mention that every VST is updated because of bugs found in it or new features being added but again, the situation can be so much more complex because of the interactive nature of all these different programs, written by different companies on different setups.

I understand you are trying to promote your own product and that's fair enough, given the professional competition you face out there, but let's make sure you quote 'real' facts not just speculation or guess work ok?

Thanks!

So, anyhow....

The Sequencer in the Oasys needs work. Couldn't agree more with that statement but it is quite usable as it is and I have used it frequently and regularly to create some very detailed and complex tracks. Could it be better? Heck yes! I would imagine that Korg is busily working away on an upgrade for the Sequencer as that would seem to be the 'weak' link in what is otherwise an amazing keyboard. Having said that, most people seem to want to use their Computer based DAW of choice anyhow, as that is what they are used to using, to create music. However, I still think that a better built in sequencer would be a huge bonus for the Oasys.

Also, your comment about using Giga for all your Oasys sounds, shows that you have no clue as to what the Oasys is all about.

Example, an STR-1 guitar sound. Not a sample but a modelled sound which means the sound changes constantly, depending on how you play it, how it interacts with other notes you play and so on. No amount of sampling will ever capture that type of modelled sound. You will just get a sterile, stagnent version of the sort of fluid, motion filled, evolving, interactive sounds the Oasys can produce.

For me, the Oasys is all about the 'sound' it produces. There is simply nothing else out there that compares and trying to compare the Oasys to the Wersi or the Neko is simply like comparing apples with oranges. They are not the same or even similar, except for the fact they are keyboards.

That's not to say the Neko, for example, is a bad keyboard because it is not. I had one for about a month on a free trial and I enjoyed it a great deal. My only issue with it, and the reason why I didn't buy it, was because it did nothing I couldn't do with my PC and keyboard for a lot cheaper a price.

The Oasys on the other hand, is something totally different and quite special/unique and something I cannot recreate using a PC and a lot of software synths.

Once you sit down and play an Oasys for any length of time (not just an hour or so but for a few days at least) you suddenly 'get' what it is all about. Going back to using other keyboards is like driving a Ferrari and then having to go back to driving a Chevy S10 truck! You just want to be back behind the wheel of that Ferrari again and nothing else will do.

Just try one out for at the very least, several hours and then see if you still feel the same about the sounds your other keyboards produce.

------------------
The Art Of Sound Website

[This message has been edited by TheArtOfSound (edited 01-27-2007).]

Hi The Art of Sound
I don�t think Lionstracs was actually criticizing the OASYS (Trying to explain things in a language that is not native to you, causes all sorts of problems) but is pointing out the features that the Mediastation has over the OASYS, which includes being able to use whatever manufactures sound generation system you require. (The OASYS is limited to its own sound system)
Adding a computer to your keyboard gives you a great wealth of software for you to use, unfortunately it involves a lot of work to set up, and if you are gigging a longer set-up time, (Also the more mechanical connections you have the more chance of things going wrong) in a studio this is fine as once it is set up, you don�t have to worry about it, but most people (Both Home and Pro users) just want to switch on and play, and this is what Wersi and other open keyboards give you. (All the power and software of a computer, with the ease of use of a Switch On and Play system)
Sound modelling is the future (All the new Hammond Organs use sound modelling to reproduce the old Mechanical Tone wheel sound) however up until recently, computers have not been powerful enough to achieve this using multiple layers. (In truth even the latest CPUs have limitations when it comes to playing multiple and highly complex modelled sounds simultaneously)
Sampling sidestepped the problem of CPU power by making recordings of the original instrument, and playing that sound back when the use presses the key. (The more samples that are taken, the more of the nuances of the instrument can be captured, (And the more memory required, hence the use of disc streaming) and this is why the larger sample sets have a stunning sound quality, that becomes almost indistinguishable from the real instrument.
Finale point to note, the latest version of the Wersi OAS system (OAS 7) has now gone beyond just using its own sampled sounds, and 3rd party manufactured VST instruments etc, (Although they are still a great part of its arsenal) by incorporating multiple sound synthesis and real time effects. As an example if you play an FM Piano sound, it is no longer a sample that you hear (Samples are available if required) but is produced exactly the same as if it was being played and produced on a Yamaha FM Synth, (DX 7 for instance) likewise effects like Wha Wha, Flanger etc are now produced in real time. (Not samples of the effects)
I hope the above clarifies things, and I also hope that manufactures continue to push the technology boundaries well into the future.
BTW, is there any chance that the Karma engine will be made available as a fully featured VST?

Bill

I own the Wersi, Lionstracs, and Oasys and I can tell you that the Oasys doesn't sound any better than the other two, especially the Wersi. The synth features of the Oasys are its stronger points, the sequencer and audio recorder are in my opinion oversights on Korg's part as both are essentially worthless to me. Sure I can use them, but why put a mediocre sequencer/recorder in an $8500 instrument? Korg needs to do some serious software updates to change that otherwise the Oasys is nothing more than a glorified synth, not a full blown workstation.

If you've never played the Wersi in person you won't know its capabilities but I can assure you they far exceed the Oasys. I can do 24 bit stereo sampling, FM synthesis, Wavetable synthesis, Analog Emulation, B4 with real time drawbars, MP3/MP4/WAV/Video playback, in addition to the Wersi factory sounds (which are great) and practically any VST that I'd want to use. The Wersi also has Cubase for audio recording and sequencing as well as Wersi's own software sequencer which is quite intuitive. Should I feel the need to use another sequencer or digital recording program its as simple as loading it into the Wersi. You simply can't do that with the Oasys. Your analogy that they are the Chevy S10 and the Oasys is a Ferrari is way off point.

As I've said, the Oasys as a synth is great with KARMA being one of its primary functions and for that its awesome. Still for the money spent I don't think the Oasys is worth the asking price unless Korg can seriously do some software magic and make it infinitely better. That's just my opinion and of course yours may vary greatly from mine.

FWIW... I've spent many months (not a few hours or days) with the Oasys and have compared it side by side with the Wersi and Lionstracs so my perpective is much different than those who have never seen all three let alone owned all three.

So, Ensnareyou, finally, an honest assessment about the Oasys from an actual owner. However, because of your insistence that no-one have an opinion about it until they have either owned it or used one extensively, I guess we are supposed to ignore you?

Your defense of these high priced keyboards has always consisted of 'you can't comment unless you have owned one, and citing others criticisms still doesn't validate your opinion'.

So what, exactly, are we to make of your comments?

Now that the gloves are off you in reference to the Oasys, how about a truly objective review of the Mediastation as an ARRANGER, rather than just as a VST playback device? Now that the defense of unfamiliarity is moot?

My opposition to the Mediastation came about simply from listening to factory and user demos, and from reading comments from users LIKE YOURSELF that posted some negative impressions. But you invariably shot me down with 'you haven't played one, you should not comment'.

Well, would I be as wrong to hold an opinion about the Oasys based on your previous post? Or is it just YOUR opinion that should carry some weight? Do you understand where I am coming from, here? If no-one should form an opinion until they have played one of these EXTREMELY rare and expensive beasts (the Oasys is by FAR the easiest one to find in the US), why do you post any comment on them at all? We are, apparently, supposed to ignore it......

So perhaps we could all just back down a little, and start to get some opinion and advice other than, 'buy one and find out for yourself' which is unlikely, given the poor nature of all the demos I've heard so far. I've posted about my rig, to demonstrate that I DO have the cash for one of these, if they prove to have value for money (a lot of money should mean a lot of value for it!), but so far you haven't come up with anything like as critical review of the MS or the Wersi as you have of the Oasys.

You can't possibly expect us to believe that either of these have NO flaws at all..... It would be honest of you to post a factual description of how you feel about the MS and Wersi, warts and all.

We have to rely on members like yourself that actually own these rare instruments - you can't find them in stores (at least, anywhere close to 99% of the readership here). It would be a great service if you actually posted a full, in depth review, with strong AND weak points explained.

Then our membership (and myself!) would have more than just conjecture to guide them.....

Diki,

All that I am trying to say is that without trying the keyboard in person you have no real clue as to what its weaknesses, strengths, or capabilities are. I would never comment on something I've not used personally because I'd be speaking without knowing anything of it. My opinion is at least based upon use rather than a guess but take it for whatever it's worth to you. I've seen far too many people make comments on an arranger/workstation that they've never used, owned, seen, etc. Listening to a few online demo's does not make one an expert on how and instrument sounds or what it can do.

I've purchased many instruments sight unseen with only recommendations from friends, clients, or other users. Whether or not the instrument will work for me is still an unknown until I try it out in person. I tried the Oasys out extensively before I bought it knowing full well the sequencer and audio recorder was sub par. Korg R&D told me that they were working on an upgrade but if that never materializes then the Oasys is nothing more than a great synth for me. An expensive synth, but a very nice synth, not a workstation studio as it is marketed.

I don't think my comments on the Wersi and Mediastation have been all positive, every instrument has its weakness. The Wersi is definitely in a league all its own but Lionstracs is catching up. I know that in time Domenik will make the Mediastation so powerful only it and the Wersi will be the pinnacle of what's available... until such time that Yamaha, Roland, or Korg want to seriously consider offering an open ended instrument. The Oasys is not as open ended as the Wersi or Lionstracs.

I don't use many canned styles so for me I don't care how many styles an arranger comes with. The Mediastation has lots of factory styles and you can build your own or import others as well if needed. No arranger can claim to have fantastic styles for every genre so I don't judge and instrument based upon that alone. Sound wise the GIGA and Synth sounds of the MS are very good with many GIGA sounds being exceptional. I hate most GM/GS sounds on any arranger but the Lionstracs GM/GS sounds are no worse than those in any other arranger. It all comes down to personal choice, what you like I may hate and vice versa. At least with the Wersi and Lionstracs I can import any sound I need or sample it. In addition I can add VST's if necessary which is a major plus. It all really depends on what you need, that's all.

Ensnareyou, thanks for your comments.

The only comments I've made about the MS have come from reading users posts, and reading the manufacturer's website and listening to demos. To do any more is impossible, short of buying one!

Unless what I have read is not factual, I think I'm justified in using it as a basis for opinion. Having already owned several VST instruments, I feel I don't have to play a MS to know what these things sound like, and their usefulness.

As to the styles.... when you say you don't used canned styles, does this mean you have to edit all the onboard styles, or you create all your own styles? Or purchase 3rd party ones?

You obviously are aware that the way you use your MS is VERY different from what most of our membership's way is.... Most of us expect that even the lowliest arranger, yet alone the top-of-the-line ones, come with at least enough styles onboard to cover most gig situations, and that those styles won't need a LOT of work just to sound adequate for public use. And most of us expect the most expensive arrangers to have the best styles.

Would you be prepared to say that, VST abilities aside, that the ARRANGER side of the MS, it's styles and arranger OS (apparently, it doesn't even have OTS abilities, yet), can compare to even a mid-line PSR3000 or E60, yet alone a T2 or E80?

You DO have a Wersi for comparison, but I imagine that you may have also at least tried a T2 or G70 out of curiosity. We honestly ARE interested in your opinion as to how well this side stacks up to the competition. This is how the majority of people interested in a MS are going to use it, primarily.

Unfortunately, the factory demos, something that just about every other manufacturer think is of paramount importance, don't sound very impressive, even up against some mid-line arrangers. So we need to rely on users like yourself to give us an honest opinion. So far, user opinions haven't been that glowing. You may have a different one, and we'd like to hear it.

You have a Wersi, obviously know your way around an arranger, have very high standards, so how about a no holds barred review on the MS AS AN ARRANGER....?

if the Oasys is marketed as a workstation ensnareyou and you are dissappointed in its performance in this regard then i am at a loss as to why you rate the MS. Afterall it is marketed as an arranger workstation and yet from what i have heard from the manufacturer in its promotional demos it should be in breach of the trades description act.It simply cannot be used in its curent form by any discerning musician as an arranger. I have spoken to at least 1 user of the MS who reluctantly admits its worthless as an arranger. What do you say as you have both the MS and the Wersi.

Until the MS can have the VST instruments be reliably used by the sequencer, keyboard AND arranger sections, and have the factory develop styles for very specific ones (say Trilogy for bass, DFH for drums, B4 for organs, Ivory for piano, etc.), it is always going to struggle to sound as effective as an arranger that has had all its' styles developed for its' own sound-set.

Add to that, if it continues to be as 'open' as it is now, it is going to need some VERY sophisticated mapping technology, WAY beyond just PC and volume CCs, to batch convert all its' styles to whatever VST you choose. Sophisticated velocity curve mapping comes to mind as a necessity, along with careful re-mapping of hi-hat mappings, as most VST's go WAY beyond GM in their hi-hat control.

The more you think about the concept of an 'open' arranger, the more you realize the difficulty of developing styles that will work with whatever VSTs the end user chooses. From what I've heard of the factory demos, the on-board sounds compare poorly to even a mid-line arranger, yet alone approach the T2, etc.. And unfortunately, THAT is what the styles are being developed for....

I think it would be far better for Domenik to do a deal with a few decent VST instrument developers, license their sounds, and develop for them... Include their price in the main price (after all, who is going to buy one of these and NOT go out and get several really good VSTs, anyway?) and finally have something that WOULD make even a T2 owner go wow!

For using MS you need to change your way of thinking. This is not closed system.
You can not see and hear all in one day, even if you use only factory presets. But really good is that you can play styles from box. Problem is only that here is huge amount of styles. Some of them are good some of them need modification. Same thing is with sounds.

New big GIGA bank offers you a lot of options sounds.
This is possible in this moment; Other new advantages will be in some days out.

About VST I can tell you, that here is a lot of opportunity to do you is the best sound. I don�t want to tell you, what the best side of MS is. You must see alone what you need.

And guys please don�t say me that this keyboard is sounds like middle rang keyboard. I know that is possible a lot more. But I saw that you are all the time attacking if somebody is sheering some good song with you. I want only to hear good conversation not aggressions.


MY FAVORIT KEYBOARD IS: TO HAVE ALL OPEN AND THAT I CAN ADD WHAT I NEED.

I dont wanna sound like a broken record but how many times do i have to ask for a demo of the MS with giga styles that sounds good and yet actually hear demos that sound bad ? How many times can we be told that it will get better , or that it takes work to get it sounding better ? I might even be bothered to put in the work if i could hear a demo where perhaps you Dom have actually put in the work so that it at least sounds comparable with other topline arrangers. I am not trying to bring either you or your product down. I wish you every success with this forward thinking venture but you will only get honest feedback frokm me. Thats all. No offence intended.The MS is supposed to be a high end arranger. Wheres the evidence ?

A factory produced demo...WOW, how many of us are ever going to sound like the "factory demo" [as the E80 demo]..

Asking for a better demo..is a cop out..Sometimes we have to justify..not buying an instrument, not because the demo doesn't sound like another, but because it may be out of our financial reach..

As for the open ended instruments..you have heard everything you need to hear..they re produce what you want...

The VST instruments are all well know, and they play as you would expect them to...perfect..

Styles are styles..the MS[for example] is the tool, it will play any style you want..if you want a Tyros style..done..a G70 style...done..

Domenik is even clearing the way to load the same sounds[same samples] from [as an example] the Tyros2 to use with the Tyros2 styles..[already mapped]..

If you folks can't understand the benefits of open ended instruments like the Wersi and MediaStation..it doesn't matter what demo you listen to...you are not a canidate [most likely] to own a Wersi or MS..

As for improvements along the way..Domenik has continualy added features, with a much wanted LS4...

Hi Fran nice to have you back. I take it that you actually bought the MS from Dom and not as a broker/dealer for Liontracs ? Either way i hope it does all you want it too.

However its really ill considered if a manufacturer expects people to buy a product just on the strength of their word. I dont have the time to purchase every keyboard product out there just on the length of the spec sheet. I filter them by

1. The manufacturers best demos
2. What i have heard from other users
3. By playing it myself
4. then i might buy

I wont get to stage 3 if the first two stages indicate that the machine is not worth my time.I might be unique in this but i doubt it.

It doesnt matter how much the manufacturer tries to convince me that once i have purchased the instrument it will sound great and do all the stuff i dreamed of, or that it will when "the next update" becomes available next week,month,year.... if they cant demonstrate that before i buy. I listened to your demo of the instrument before it was pulled and it certainly was not a manufacturers demo.

However it was very illuminating.

Apologies bto Ensnareyou. I dont want to deviate too much from your thread. Having owned the MS and Wersi and having obvious experience of other arrangers whats your honest opinion of the MS as an arranger as it came to you ?

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 01-31-2007).]

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 01-31-2007).]

Either the MS can be made to sound better than the T2 or E80, or it can't....

If it can....PROVE IT.

If not.... MOVE ON....!

How many of these things have been sold? Can ANYONE post some work done solely with it that comes anywhere near the T2 demos (they are far more representative of what the average good player will be able to achieve than the Roland sequences - they are sequences of heavily edited style play)?

Plenty of people posting examples of what they have achieved on Rolands and Yamahas. Some of them EXTREMELY good sounding. Where are the user demos of the MS? There are more people posting 'for sale' threads than demos......

You draw your own conclusions......

Its not a studio factory demo like the ones we are amazed..when we hear..

Here is a MP3 recorded out of the phone jack of the MS into my laptop..[that is why it is noisy..the outputs of the MS are super quiet..

It is recorded using the worst sounds possible on the MS..the Dream chip[ soundbank]..the internal rom sounds..No VST's were used..
http://download.yousendit.com/F485BA9072042CF6

Now I am moving on

Well then Fran.....

I guess theres nothing else to say !

I hate it when people start making excuses for a demo in their introduction of a demo. You just know its mot going to inspire confidence in what you are about to hear.

Fran why did you post this demo ? Why pick the worst internal sounds and the worst style to demo this "open instrument " ? I already know the internal sounds are poor. I already know the styles are weak. Is this some sort of reverse psychology thing ?
The whole potential USP of the media station is its ability to play VST/Giga, import the best styles etc so that it will sound like the best arranger in the market place. Are you honestly telling me that you would pick this instrument over even your 10 year old roland G1000 ? Is this for real ??????

Like i said before, it would seem neither the company nor its supporters despite request after request can demonstrate the open capability in demos that sound even marginally better than an entry level casio.

Well the case is closed for me.I've probbly said too much already.

Because of those negativ post I will not post any demo here. ( you will every time find something wrong in ) Please Splading give me some you demo. IF you are having.

You don't know what posibble to do with MS. And with your offensive you will never know. So if you want to see real thing you can join as on CAMFROG ARRANGER CONFERENCE ROOM, I will be glad to hear something from you but not as offensive.

But please don't say that this is the worst demo. Fran done good job but you are listening that with your eyes not with ears. He shows you that you are not ready for open sys keyboards.

Spalding you don�t know anything about MS. I told you, that for this keyboard you need time. About styles: they are not so wick as you are explaining us. Fran is having old board. ( I hope that you know.) But with new sounds that Domenic gave us for free is this keyboard more powerful and also futures that are ready are good.

Sorry NIGEL I don't want to hurt somebody, but this attacking every day is angry me every day more and more.


BEST REGARDS.





[This message has been edited by Magica Alfa (edited 02-01-2007).]

I agree with you 100 percent, Alfa.

Spalding, every time you say it's your last post on the subject you come back with more. We all know by now that you and your co-horts don't like the MS so you're really starting to sound like a broken record.



[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 02-01-2007).]

Did i start attacking ? when did i do that ? Fran said that he used the worst sounds of the MS. Did i misqoute him ? I simply questioned why use the worst sounds ? Surely it would have been better to use the best ? I asked for a demo showing the instruments "open " capabilities . It is an "open system ", i asked for that to be demonstrated. Should i not have asked ? Why is that considered attacking language ? I dont get it.

How much time does it take for someone to work with the MS to make it sound better ? This is serious because i need to know what kind of adjustments need to be made to the instrument to make it sound at least comparable to other closed system top end instruments. Was my comment about the comparrison with an entry level casio harsh ?If so i apologise right here and now without reservation. Magic Alpha what instrument would you feel would be a more acurate comparrison ? I genuinely want to know.

Taike. I commented on this thread concerning Ensnareyou's opinion of the MS as heis in the unique position of owning both the MS and wersi both of which are "open system " arrangers. Seeing as neither the MS manaufacturers or other interested parties seem able to provide a decent demo i have simply asked a user of the MS and wersi of their opinion of both .

I want to like the MS. I really do , i think it has real potential and i would love to see the top three manufacturers have to work harder for my money but from all the talk going back and forth i am still trying to find evidence that it is nolonger just potentially a great arranger/workstation. There is enough evidence out there to condemn the instrument.(please dont take that the wrong way Fran or Magic Alfa) Thats not the purpose of my questions. You guys are convinced its the next best thing to sliced bread, on what do you base that confidence ?

Thats all i am trying to establish.

If i have spoken out of place Nigel then pm me and let me know.

Taike, magic Alfa and whoever else, if you want to be selective in reading motives into my posts read this

"I might even be bothered to put in the work if i could hear a demo where perhaps you Dom have actually put in the work so that it at least sounds comparable with other topline arrangers. I am not trying to bring either you or your product down. I wish you every success with this forward thinking venture but you will only get honest feedback frokm me. Thats all. No offence intended.The MS is supposed to be a high end arranger. Wheres the evidence ?"

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 02-01-2007).]

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 02-01-2007).]

Guys I used the GM bank [Dream chip] to record the Tango..I called it the worst because it is the GM bank..It is as good as any other GM bank I have heard on any arranger..
I recorded a Samba with the MS , using Hyper Canvas, and M-Audio Key Rig for the organ comp[B4 is much better, but I wanted to show VST software that you can buy today ..way under $200..Matter of fact Hyper Canvas is closed out at $50 and I paid $75 for Key Rig..

I just wanted to show how other instruments can be used..if you want to take the time to load these programs..BTW ..the VST programs are also GM default without edits..

I am sure , we are not going to convince anyone with a "closed" mind ..the benefits of an "open" end keyboard..


Just wanted to contribute another way to hear the MS..
http://download.yousendit.com/FD45422C03668005

Seem like that here you missing me...

I'm not worried at all because you really don't know what we are cooking here and no one of my MS clients have the new ISO 1.4 for testing.
Here are some of the new features that we have included in the ISO 1.4: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/msiso-14-p-152.html

The MS sounds now totally different, because we have skipped the old GM/GS DSP and all the sounds now are primary under GIGA format. Of course we have leave in the system the old DSP Soundbank mode too because some nice sounds we can always use for some settings.
Here are some new GIGA demos and you can hear the new difference sunds quality:
http://www.lionstracs.com/store/informat...e4e1e445b890bf4

The new OS system is working now basic under GIGA format, where is also possible now loading in background multiple GIGA sounbank, like the Tyros 2 sounds and the orintal sounds.
The Qsampler is our basic Sound mapper: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/LSampler4.jpg
where is really EASY to insert/edit new sounds in the map file and up to 16.000 giga sounds mapping are possible.
Here is the demo of the mapping file that will come out form the qsampler:
http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/sampler4/LSinstruments.txt

I had try to mapping the E-80, but is a lot of work, because the E-80 have more than 1000 sounds, the G-70 have much more work, because have more than 1600 sounds.
Mapping the Tyros 2 is really easy, because have only 502 sounds at all, same for the SD5,less than 400 sounds.

So...with the qsampler now is really EASY to remap and clone every keyboards sounds bank and ehn you will loading the original brand styles, the MS editor will automatically send the all right program change/variation and controllers to the Linuxsampler, wher the LS 4.0 now, with the right TXT map file can play the all sounds that you like, unlimited.

Hey guys...this DO NOT man that I have to give you the all sounds for FREE that you need, when we have here new GIGA sounds developed from our sounds engineers, we will always give you for free, like our last soundbank 8200: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/giga-soundbank-8200v6-p-161.html

For sure some sounds are not so amazing, but anyway you wil have for FREE more than 1660 GIGA sounds.

IF you dont like our FREE sounds, you can also BUY from other company or people that will sell you 1 nice 30-40Mb Tyros 2 piano for 50 euro ( and then waiting 7/20 minute for loading it and play...)

I'm not here to criticize nobody, you know there that I like post more technical question and I think that I resevere nice reply too and not attack.

For your know, my partners have buy one Korg Oasys 76 too and we use for our strange sounds production.
This is the company of my partners: http://www.mediarec.it
So..we dont have notigh to learn how to make and records music.

I have tested last week the OASYS too in the studios, really one AMAZING syntesizer with the modelling sounds, BUT we use it ONLY connected by Midi IN with the MAC, Pro Tools interface, Logic Audio 7 and TON of VST plugins.
If we have to use the internal Oasys 16 tracks sequencer and the only 16bit resolution, I think is better that we change our work or we will never sell new songs!
They use one Mediastation X-76 Pro too, only with the Ardour DAW for remastering new CD compilation and for the Demo/Video Clips http://www.ardour.org/files/main-screenshot-big.png

So..after this long post...just wait some more days untill we merge in the code the last features and then we release the new OS 1.4.
MS users...just a little patience and then you will have fun again to posting here..is a promise.
Cheers

Hi there. I'm new to posting on this forum, but have been reading the postings for about 6 months now.
With regards to the Mediastation which I have heard, to me you pay �2500 plus for something that is basically a glorified master keyboard with a few sounds thrown in as a bonus. If you want to make it sound better, you have to shell out humdreds of pounds on giga samples and VST programs.
I can understand why Fran likes it, after all it has got a huge GM set for playing back SMF files
As for the demos, enough said. This is not and never will be an arranger keyboard. It's trying to be too many things at once and failing, instead of being good at just a few things. I can't fault Dom for trying but after a few years since this was released, you'd have thought the styles would at least sound better than a Casio or some low end PSR by now

I think I should clarify something first about the 'sound' of the Oasys.

I wasn't trying to say it was better or worse than any other keyboard/workstation/arranger. What I was trying to say, in a very clumsy way it seems, was that the 'sound' of the Oasys is different in ways very few, if any, other Keyboards out there can match. That is why I used 'sound' instead of sound.

It's like how how modelled sounds can be made to interact with other modelled sound or the fact that the fidelity of the Oasys's Rom based sounds are way up there in the quality stakes compared to almost every other keyboard available.

As for the debate going on here, (and there is nothing wrong with a passionate debate on any subject so I have no problem with taking part in, or reading such debates at all! ) in regards to the quality of demos for this or that keyboard..... If a keyboard has high quality sounds then posting up demos that are poorly recorded or use "the worse sounds' makes no sense to me. That does simply sound like a bunch of excuses to make up for a lack of quality for the keyboard in question.

We *all* tend to be biased towards the keyboards we own or have owned and I am no exception. For example, I sing the praises of my good old JD800/990's that I own (I have four now in total), all the time and yet I know, that for some people and their tastes the JD's are nothing special but for me, and my own tastes in music and sounds, the JDs take a lot of beating for that particular type of synth. I wouldn;t part with them for the world and yet, I also know that if I relaly wanted to I could recreate those sounds via one of my other keyboards. Not exactly, no.. but close enough. However, it's not just ablut the sounds themselves, but how the keyboard feels generally, that is equally important to me as well as the fact I know my way around the JDs, inside and out so of course, to me, the JDs are great becaue I have that level of experience using them!

Finally, I just want to point out that there is a world of difference between stating a fact as a fact and stating an opinion.

If someone says "Keyboard X doesn't do this" when it does, then that is factually incorrect.

If someone says "Keyboard X doesn't do this as well as I would like it to" then that is an opinion and if expressed as such, is valid in that person's mind.

When I saw a couple of facts that were incorrect, I was simply correcting those facts. This is because facts should be kept very seperate to opinions and if one quotes facts then the person stating the fact should always ensure his facts are accurate to the best of his knowledge. If those facts are incorrect then it's ok for someone else to correct him and state the real facts.

However, when I saw opinions that were different to mine, I was simply expressing my own opinions on those subjects. That is called discussion and debate and I would hope that, this form of discussion is both welcomed and useful to anyone reading these posts.

(I also note that sometimes, having to use English, when it is not your primary language, can cause difficulties during translation, so I try and bear that in mind too.)

Okay.. time to step off my soapbox.. Nice forum you have here and an interesting read indeed!

Cheers..

Nigel


------------------
The Art Of Sound Website

I think Craig is back....

Everyone has the right to their own opinions. I think peoples opinions will change when Dom releases the next update. Did anyone really read what all is in the very near future for the Mediastation? The specs of this upcoming update are very impressive.

Hopefully we can get owners to put out some good demos when the updates are released. I honestly think people will change their minds with this keyboard. There are some major changes and additions with this update too.

I am prepared to change my opinion in a flash, at the first sign of any adequate demos.

What I can't understand is why Lionstracs can't post any demos that sound better than a T2 (I keep quoting the T2 just to prove that I am not just extolling the keyboard - G70 - that I own!).

They are an instrument manufacturer in direct competition with Roland, Yamaha etc., and yet somehow seem to feel that THEIR keyboard does not need a competing demo to demonstrate their superiority. In fact, they have a stated opinion that seems to say 'Don't listen to our demos, YOU can make the MS sound MUCH better than this, don't listen to the styles, YOU will have much better sounding styles than this.... and don't EVER criticize our demos, because you just don't 'get' what an open system is all about!'

Laughable.... This may possibly be how things get sold in Italy (don't test drive our Fiat, just buy it and find out whether it's any good), but I am afraid the rest of the world doesn't work that way.

All that seems apparent is that Lionstracs don't 'get' what an open system keyboard is all about, or else WHERE ARE THE MP3s THAT PROVE IT?

Any idiot with a laptop or desktop computer can go out and get B4, Hypersonic or HyperCanvas (itself way worse than a ten year old Roland GS module) and use them with the arranger they already have. Everyone reading this forum has got enough computer for an 'open' system. B4 used to work pretty well on my old Apple G3 300MHz doorstop!

The ONLY thing that can make the MS into a competitive arranger to T2 and the like is, as I said earlier on, is for ALL sections to have unfettered access to top of the line VSTi's, and for the styles to be developed for those same VSTi's. Anyone that thinks the onboard GM/GS sounds are adequate just hasn't ever played a T2 or E80, etc..

I am also concerned about Alfa's appeal to Nigel for 'protection' against this criticism. You have to understand that these people (Domenik and Alfa, and maybe even Fran, if he is still a distributer) are NOT regular members of this forum. They are representatives of a MANUFACTURER, not end users like ourselves. Their opinions serve themselves, you can take their claims with as big a pinch of salt as anybody trying to sell you a product.

We have as much right as anybody to keep the pressure on for 'proof' of their claimed superiority, and to cry 'foul' at their marketing hype. Until they can post ONE style demo that justifies their inflated price (I understand about hardware necessities, but what point is expensive hardware if the sounds and styles it plays are poor?), no amount of claims of superiority will persuade me to buy one.

Perhaps Domenik and his company don't think that hiring a top of the line demonstrator is worth the money. They ARE expensive, and precisely because the product evolves so rapidly, will need to be re-hired every time a significant improvement to the OS or sound-set occurs, but apparently Yamaha, Roland, Wersi, Ketron and just about everybody else thinks they are a necessity of business.

It's an interesting marketing concept..... you post barely adequate demos of a product and say 'But in YOUR hands, it will sound better......' and expect us to fork out a fortune just to find out if you are correct.

How about you GIVE us one, and IF we sound better than the demos, THEN we pay you for it......? No....?

Then don't expect us to trust you, either. Every other manufacturer demos their equipment to hopefully it's highest level except, apparently Lionstracs. Or perhaps, they ARE demoing it to it's current highest level, and unfortunately, that's the best it can do right now. That is what most people will infer....

Remember, these guys are trying to sell us their product, NOT recommend something that someone else makes. They make a profit from our gullibility.

Caveat emptor......

Thanks Dom for the demos with the new gm/gs sounds. The sound quality is better than what i have heard so far from the MS. I cant tell if you are using styles in the demos on the instrument or just midi files but it doesnt really matter now .You are moving in the right direction. I dont know if you noticed but there were some serious note drop outs in particualrly Vasco Guitars Midiplayer sound,and Pippo Midiplayer sound demos and odd volume changes in th others.
You might want to look at that and see what the problem is. Just honest feedback Dom not an "attack" Thanks for your efforts. I wont comment on the MS again as its clear its not what i thought it could be but i wish you the best of luck with the project.


[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 02-01-2007).]

Careful, spalding...... ANY criticism of Dom's demos is deemed an attack by "people that just don't 'get' the advantages of 'open' system arrangers"....!

Personally, I don't see anyone ATTACKING Domenik. I just see post after post going 'why does this sound so bad?' and just getting the same 'check out our NEW features' form reply. Never an answer as to why..... (other than, of course, because WE don't 'get' what open keyboards are about!).

Diki,
Now that you have explained to us that "these guys" are not regular members of this forum, perhaps you should tell us who is so we will know who to listen to.

Alfa Magica is as much a "regular member" as anyone here. He does not work for Lionstracs. He paid for his Mediastation just like I did and your claim that he is not an end user so you should take his opinions with "a big pinch of salt" is ludicrous. And what about me? Am I a "regular member" of this forum? This is still the "General Arranger Forum", or do we actually have to own a Yamaha or Roland product to pass initiation? Didn't I hear the word "elitism" mentioned earier?

So from the mouth of an actual: paying customer of Lionstracs, Mediastation end user, and I hope a "regular member" of this forum; "I am very happy with the Mediastation, both in its current state and continued development".

Footnote: the opinions expressed in this post were not compensated in any way by Lionstracs Inc., Merano, Italy. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent. oops wrong tv series. LOL

As an aside,

Ensnareyou, what is the serial number of your Oasys and is it a 76 or 88?

The reason I ask is that I have yet to find the 'evil twin' for mine and so, as I didn't see your Oasys registered under your nym on Karmalab (though you might be using a different nym there) I am wondering if you are my long lost 'evil' twin'!

For those who do not know about 'evil twins', every Oasys has a serial number and there are two sets of identical serials, one set for 88's and one set for 76's. Your 'evil twin' is the Oasys that has a matching serial number for your Oasys. So far, only 5 or 6 people have found their 'evil twin' Oasys but it's been a lot of fun looking for them around the world.

Anyhow, let me know as I would like to find the person who owns the Oasys with the matching serial to my own! Maybe we could work on some 'evil twin' music together??

Cheers..

Nigel

------------------
The Art Of Sound Website

[This message has been edited by TheArtOfSound (edited 02-02-2007).]

Live (OMB) Wersi music can be found here, http://www.yourhobby.nl/portal/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=lastupby&uid=46 they are played live (No Midi or mp3 backings) by Wersiano www.wersiano.nl and the instrument used is the Wersi Abacus.
Hopefully the laid back style will bring a sense of calm to the post.

Bill

My apologies to Alfa, I was under the impression (can't remember where I started to think that) that he was part of the company. I was apparently VERY wrong, and apologize profusely..... Sorry, Alfa.

Fran, OTOH, posted a few weeks ago that he was involved with the company. That may have changed, I don't know. If it has, my apologies there, too.

--------------------------------------------------------

So, Richard, are you gigging with your MS? Or do you use primarily the VST side with other arrangers?

I can perhaps understand the reluctance to post any music done on the MS because of the scrutiny it will receive, but how, exactly, do you explain the poor quality of the official demos? It's fairly easy to download T2 and E80 mp3s from their manufacturers, and directly compare to demos from Domenik's site. No comparison, IMO...... Perhaps you can point me to a demo that DOES blow the competition away?

It is just of great concern to me, and many others here that have to listen to Domenik's constant crowing of superiority, that NO proof of it exists.

Most of us are probably aware that we could use a Receptor to provide a few VST sounds, and use a mature, mainstream arranger to achieve a very similar capability to the MS, with none of the problems that seem apparent in the factory demos. We 'get' it..... open systems COULD be very useful. But only if they works at least as well as the alternatives....

It is interesting to take a trip back in time through domenik's posts (gotta LOVE that search engine!) all the way back to 2003. He's still using the same lines - 'will sound better soon, after new update, blah, blah, blah'.....

Next year in Jerusalem, eh?

Hi Spalding1 ( or Worth from Korgforums, I know that you are the same guy..)

the new demos that you heard are made from standard midifiles, played with the Linuxsampler.
Close the Mp3 demo you have the link to listen/download the original midifile too and test in your keyboard too, then you can make the comparation.

About some clips you are right, this problem come sometime out when I use the Rezound audio editor for record: http://rezound.sourceforge.net/
Now seem that they have fixed this bug too and from the next demos I think this will never happen, OR i have to use the Ardour, but is a little more work, because Ardour dont have integrated the Mp3 encoder/decoder.

Yesterday we have release the new ISO 1.4, but in the next days we update it again, because now again new features.
We add the Audio Player Groove box too, it mean that in the Audio player we canb start play one audio groove file ( unlimited size, streaming fronm HD) and when we press the MS key: LOOP, the MS will automatically looping, like a groove box.
When one of this file is Run, you can also preload the next Groove file and press Enter.
When the old grove file arrive to End point, will start automatically the new groove file, of cousre automatically looped.

Nice feature too..if someone will play Groove box dance files and playing it over with the keyboard another sounds, without use the Audio arranger styles.

Cheers

DIKI I accept apologies.

But about Ms I can tell you only this only we who are having this keyboard know what MS is really.

I'm playing with this keyboard live from May 2006. I can tell you that is really good for me. I never had problems with it.

Styles that I'm having prepared are playing professional and better than any my keyboard before. I had: I3, Gem Sk760 Gem GENESYS pro. I had on one gig also TYROS 2 and PA1 PRO. I can say all this keyboards are good. But for my needs is the best MS.

I'm really sorry that you are meaning so abut MS, but for that must have music shops big big merits. Also problem of shops is that they are not having educated people for this keyboards and they are afraid to sell that.

Maybe near in future will be somebody so brave to sell that. But this is complete different story.

Best regards.

Nice to hear that the T2 and G70 rule

Music stores will ALWAYS have morons working in them (except George Kaye!)...... If the future of the MS rests in their hands, which for long term economic growth is essential, Domenik is going to have to do what all the other arranger manufacturers have...... make the keyboard sound great the minute you switch it on.

NOT after you have spent weeks, months or more setting it up yourself. Perhaps Domenik's business model is for him to have a small, loyal, extremely technically gifted user base, but I'm sure he would prefer to sell the MS in Yamaha-like numbers. For this, he is going to have to do what everyone else does. Turn it on, and blow the competition away.

A T2, while not as complex or capable as an MS, is still a VERY complex arranger, to the point that VERY few of it's users probably know it inside and out. But you don't need to know all that for it to sound wonderful out of the box.

Apparently, with the MS, you do.......

With the MS as impossible to find in the USA as it is, only Dom's and user demos are all we can go on. Dom's demos are poor (there really is not much argument there) and no user has ever posted a demo that seriously competes with T2 etc..

I own a G70, and yet, from Yamaha and it's users demos and posts, I can come up with a pretty good idea of how good (or not!) it is. Why is the MS the only arranger that cannot be judged (at least as far as any other arranger) by listening to demos, and user demos and reviews.....?

I imagine all the other arranger manufacturers going 'Great! Now we don't need to spend any money on a good set of demos..... Apparently, no-one can form an opinion about our quality until they have played one! And, we don't even have to widely stock it so people can form their own opinions. It seems that arranger users are going to buy them, just to find out for themselves....!!!!'

Yeah, sure............

I'm tired of all this. PUT UP, OR SHUT UP.....

Dear,

Would you be so kind DIKI, and post some your demo of your G70.


Thanks.

PLENTY of user demos of the G70 up on Youtube, and Roland have plenty on their sites, and the Danish G70 site has plenty more. This isn't about how WELL I play. It's about how GOOD the keyboard sounds.

The day I hear a style demo from the MS that is amazing, you will hear me state it loud and clear. I have no emotional baggage for the arranger I own, I have heard wonderful demos of T2s, PA800s, and many more. I am prepared to admit it..... I don't go in for the ' MY arranger is the only good one' school of thought. ANYTHING that sounds great, I will be the first to chime in and say so.....

BUT....... so far, I haven't heard ONE demo of the MS that supports it's claim of superiority. Only technical superiority. I admit (and have never said otherwise) that it has some amazing capabilities, but as of yet, none of the technical superiority has trickled down to actual musical superiority.

It's kind of like owning a 400 horse-power car with a badly slipping clutch. It OUGHT to be able to go 200 mph, but can barely break 100...... Nothing wrong with the engine, but the transmission needs work.

How about YOU posting some MS only style demos, Alfa? I promise I will make NO comment about your playing, I only want to hear the styles performed (to get an idea at how well the fills transition, and how well it responds to slightly off-time chord input). There are so few available, any addition would be useful.

Do not misunderstand me, Alfa. I WANT the MS to be everything it claims to be. I would buy one in a flash. I have the money, AND the technical skills to operate it (I've been using VSTi's since the day they came out). But first and foremost, it is supposed to be an arranger/workstation. Thus, the arranger side of it has to at least better what I already have, and sadly, from listening to the demos, it isn't there, yet.

I don't hate it for being unfinished, but I also don't like to let the manufacturer come here to brag about it's superiority (you never see Yamaha or Roland come here to flame THEIR competition!) unchallenged.

As far as I can tell from everything I have yet heard, 'the emperor has no clothes!'.

SOMEBODY has to say it........